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ARRANGEMENTS

#51
i try not to think of it as loop music, but as groove music....... i try to approach my drums so that they are as i would play them if i were sitting there actually playing that groove, so the fills are in places i would play them, and done in the fashion i would play them too. everything else is slave to the drums for me Icon_razz.


not exactly ot, but i was listening to james brown's 'aint it funky' today, and it was totally non-boring, even though it is a 'loop'. then went to my much shorter in-progress tune and got bored very quickly, despite the cheddits etc.

Chin
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#52
macc Wrote:not exactly ot, but i was listening to james brown's 'aint it funky' today, and it was totally non-boring, even though it is a 'loop'. then went to my much shorter in-progress tune and got bored very quickly, despite the cheddits etc.

Chin

yes that is interesting. i think the best cheddits tunes are made by people with a good grasp of how a groove works, and they never lose sight of it when they make their tune, no matter how many snares are flying all over the place. take equinox - he can make an 8 million edit tune, but his stuff like from above and love fantasy show he can make interesting, complex groove based music without needing loads of seemingly random variations

problem is when producers go too far the other way and assume 'groove' means 'two-step beat'...calibre anyone (much as i like some of his music)? groove doesn't mean 'at least on downbeat every 4 bars either' Hahaha
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#53
Isn't that the same?
groove = rhythm = repeating pattern = loop Teef

I don't think looping has to be boring or bad, not at all.
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#54
littleNemo Wrote:I don't think looping has to be boring or bad, not at all.

I didn't say it did.

I just said the dangers of fetishising the loops=groove equation are as bad as the dangers of fetishising cheddits.

Groove is where it is at though.
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#55
Logos Wrote:
littleNemo Wrote:I don't think looping has to be boring or bad, not at all.

I didn't say it did

Sorry, that wasn't response to your post, I just thought my previous post could be read as "loops = boring", so I wanted to make it clear that this wasn't my intention.
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#56
littlenemo Wrote:sorry, that wasn't response to your post, i just thought my previous post could be read as "loops = boring", so i wanted to make it clear that this wasn't my intention.

Oops Xyxthumbs
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#57
Nah, Nemo, I know what you meant, that is sort of what I was getting at, that a loop isn't boring by definition. When you add up the bits of that JB tune, it shouldn't be very interesting, but, as Jabo says in the middle of the tune 'it sho is funky now'.

A good loop/groove/rhythm could go on all day for me, I mean, shit, when I play and I catch something I like and hold on to it, I could play it all day. The thing is that the fills I do make sense for that groove, cos my body and mind are locked in that groove when I am playing. It is almost unavoidable that fills/edits Hahaha will fit with the beat, cos I am playing, no FEELING the groove.

However, the contrived nature of making music on a computer means a lot of people do fills that have no grounding in reality, so when they come in they disrupt the flow.

Don't get me wrong, fills MADE to disturb the flow are a different thing altogether, but people trying to do drum-stuff and not being able to make it work naturally just sounds......... crap, at least to me.


Errr, what were we taking about again? Grin Oops
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#58
Macc Wrote:Errr, what were we taking about again? Grin Oops

Hahaha I just wanted to know how people here approach arranging dnb and if they have tried different ways than building the track around the rhythm.
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#59
littleNemo Wrote:different ways than building the track around the rhythm.

Er..... Baffled ......... No, sorry, you are going to have to explain that Teef Wink
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#60
Macc Wrote:Errr, what were we taking about again? Grin Oops

How to arrange Drum Solos... Teef
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#61
Hahaha look at you and your manky teef.......

you should use this one though naphta:

[Image: teefpirate.gif]

Yes

anyway.........
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#62
Naphta, Macc knows. he spends 40 hours+ on a 1 or 2 bar drum solo alone Teef
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#63
Not quite true.......... But I have spent three hours on two bars. When it's got to be right, it's got to be right.
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#64
*nomenclature police* Nono

groove doesn not = loop.

this is precisely what i was getting at with some of my previous posts.

groove is like a syntax. it's the feeling....the stretch and accounting for of human error....it's what makes stuff that's played sound a lot fucking different from something that's programmed on the grid, even if you quantise to a computer based feel, unless you manually go and do little shoves to the front and back of the beats and painstakingly reproduce all the imperfections that amount to a groove, than you're not really playing/creating/feeling said groove.

that being said, probably the most interesting thing for me (and i assume many, although all may not have identified it as such) about breakbeats; is that you get the groove! you've captured an actual person playing....all the imperfection, all the soul, all the humanity and you can manipulate, reappropriate and reconfigure the essence of that persons feel.....this is why you can't remake funky drummer or amen with any combination of single hits or unrelated samples....it's just not possible. there are far to many variables. (especially recorded bleed and ambient room tone, mic placement etc....)

but i digress....i'm getting off topic.

what is important to note regarding arranging w/ relation to a "dj friendly" track, is that if you as a dj can feel groove (aka, not hear where there's a 'clak' or a 'tss', but feel the underlying relationship of the sounds in time) than you should be able to mix that track.

some examples of feeling groove :

a) one time i thought "i wonder what it would be like if i tried to superimpose some kieth jarret solo piano music ontop of this source direct track i've got here....the source direct tune is fairly minimal....maybe it could benefit from a nice melodic structure over top". so i went to my records, cracked out "the koln concert" had a listen until i found a track that had a similar tempo and started counting it over the source direct. then i got a nice place in the jarret tune to drop the 1 of the beat in and off we went! it sounded great.....i had no drums of any kind or anything other than the feel (aka the groove) of the jarret track that i count in my head while i have the obvious feel from the drum kit going on in the source direct to mix with. see what i mean?

b) when you hear a jazz drummer trade 4's (you trade improvised sets of 4 bars at a time between the drummer and the other members of the group. ie. 4 bars drums, 4 bars guitar, 4 bars drums, 4 bars sax) with a drummer, you are all feeling the groove. when it's the guitars turn (me), i'm just blowing over the chord changes of the song (what dodz; you mean there's more to keep track of! Nervous ) and the rhythmic feel of the song....then the drummer goes, and he does the same thing. sometimes the drummer goes way out into polymetric mayhem.....but if you have good time and feel, you can count through it (1, 2, 3, 4 etc) and land right back on the one when he's done his 4 bar phrase.

see what i mean? feel and groove are your minds internal senses of time relationships. it does require attention and effort and training. just like any skill. most people can't do this without spending some time with the concept, but it's not that hard to get the jist of.

.....i could go on forever about this (really dodz? no!) because i think it's really important for everyone to know, and unfortunately a lot people that are "jungle musicians" don't care much to hear.....so i'll stop. if anyone has questions.....shoot!
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#65
macc Wrote:yes!!! Hahaha Xyxthumbs dodz, like you care, but you are permanently alright in my book. Cool

of course i care! don't you realise what this means? now that i've won over your heart, i can mistreat you and you'll still come back for more love with wide eyed admiration!

Teef
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#66
Nomenclature police need to allow the two interpretations of groove though.......

I know what you are talking about, really I do.....

But at the same time, the fundamental underlying loop/ostinato - the pattern contained in that block you keep repeating Grin - is referred to by many as the groove.

How else can I put it..... Rather than the timing variation, like say a swing on the 16th notes (the kind of thing you refer to)...... The distribution, no, fuck it, the pattern of kicks snares etc, the variation of their placement within a small number of bars that is repeated ad nauseum and so becomes ingrained in the mind - that is also often referred to as a groove.

Like Palm Grease - it's a great groove, with groove. Cool If you get me.
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#67
ok, i can allow for that duality, but i think the one i was talking about has more bearing as the predominant meaning of the term.

the other version is more like "phrasing"

you can apply the term "groove" to the term "loop" (especially in the case you're sighting macc), but make sure to understand that the 2 are non necessarily synonimous.
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#68
dodz Wrote:ok, i can allow for that duality, but i think the one i was talking about has more bearing as the predominant meaning of the term.

the other version is more like "phrasing"

you can apply the term "groove" to the term "loop" (especially in the case you're sighting macc), but make sure to understand that the 2 are non necessarily synonimous.

I will, my master.

Thanks for the permission to apply the term "groove" to the term "loop" Teef

Nah, seriously, I know you're right, feel/groove is more 'correct' than loop/groove, and I agree.


BUT IT IS STILL OT! Hahaha
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#69
basically the faster the tempo the harder it is to make intricate woven drum patterns.maybe a return to 155-160 bpm is whats needed.at higher speeds drum patterns sound messy if they get too complicated.the art of breakbeat is dying out.
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#70
deckjunkie Wrote:basically the faster the tempo the harder it is to make intricate woven drum patterns.maybe a return to 155-160 bpm is whats needed.at higher speeds drum patterns sound messy if they get too complicated.

Xyxthumbs absolutely.

Quote:the art of breakbeat is dying out.

Thumbd absolutely not.
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#71
deckjunkie Wrote:basically the faster the tempo the harder it is to make intricate woven drum patterns.maybe a return to 155-160 bpm is whats needed.at higher speeds drum patterns sound messy if they get too complicated.the art of breakbeat is dying out.

someone should let tom and richard know about that! Teef

[Image: squarepusheraphextwin90s.jpg]

they've had it wrong for so long! Teef
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#72
Hahaha
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#73
ok i stand corrected ,i'm pretty ignorant as regards the new shit out there ,so i'm still makin tunes in the old style,but i really feel a lower tempo gives you much more scope to fool around with the rhythm
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#74
deckjunkie Wrote:ok i stand corrected ,i'm pretty ignorant as regards the new shit out there ,so i'm still makin tunes in the old style,but i really feel a lower tempo gives you much more scope to fool around with the rhythm

dude, i'm juss playin'....i guess i assume everyone knows i'm a complete jackass....er....yeah

but i agree actually....it feel slightly more, for lack of a better term, "natural"? when you bring it down by about 10 clicks.....160-65 is just great by me....
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#75
macc Wrote:you should use this one though naphta:

[Image: teefpirate.gif]

me loike!
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