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ARRANGEMENTS

Logos Wrote:Nucleus - now there's a guy who arranges that little bit different...

Good point!
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Naphta Wrote:
Logos Wrote:Nucleus - now there's a guy who arranges that little bit different...

Good point!

e.g. Return to Forever is productively minimal (as opposed to being minimal just because you can't be arsed to make the tune interesting). He drops samples in and out of his drum groove like Jeff Mills or James Ruskin...there's a lot to that tune in particular.
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Logos Wrote:e.g. Return to Forever is productively minimal (as opposed to being minimal just because you can't be arsed to make the tune interesting). He drops samples in and out of his drum groove like Jeff Mills or James Ruskin...there's a lot to that tune in particular.

Wasn't that very much the son of This Side Of Forever (w/ Paradox)?
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Naphta Wrote:
Logos Wrote:e.g. Return to Forever is productively minimal (as opposed to being minimal just because you can't be arsed to make the tune interesting). He drops samples in and out of his drum groove like Jeff Mills or James Ruskin...there's a lot to that tune in particular.

Wasn't that very much the son of This Side Of Forever (w/ Paradox)?

ohh I haven't heard that one.
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Naphta Wrote:Is it though? Not in any d+b I've heard in the last few years...

Quote:Listen to most d+b. It actually isn't!


DAAAAGHHH! If you want to talk about arranging in dnb in the last few years, then we're fucked, cos there isn't anything to discuss........ But if you want to talk about arranging, as in arranging arranging, breaking out of the usual paradigm of dnb, then we're fucked too, cos it is a nigh on endless topic.........




Quote:Well I wasn't really looking for anyone to say: do it THIS way or THAT way.. maybe just to swap a few ideas or theories..?


Now that we CAN do.

But this brings me to my point again: It isn't like a compressor where you can say 'no more than 6 dB gain reduction' or whatever - the whole theory is a lot less quantitative, a lot more....... abstract, as it were.........


As for Nucleus................... Lovesmilie Not so much tune arranging, as allowing the groove to go on, and concentrating on sample arrangement..... Great stuff.
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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Logos Wrote:
Quote:Wasn't that very much the son of This Side Of Forever (w/ Paradox)?

ohh I haven't heard that one.

I OWN that one!! Icon_eek Icon_eek Icon_eek
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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OK. Let me try...

I first noticed the linear style of arranging drum n bass in 94 with Photek's 'The Lightning'. Bangin tune - as were all the early Photeks, but even then I was aware that there was a new movement emerging in d+b back then - breakbeat stuff based more on straight lines than on cut-ups.

Photek was at pains to point out his roots in Detroit techno as opposed to Rave or even Hiphop (at that point anyway - maybe cos hiphop-jumpup was just round the corner and it seemd too grubby and distasteful?!!))... and the critics who picked up on him tended to eulogise him for just that - plus for his pristine production values and for what was essentially a mroe conservative approach to writing his tunes... i.e. he succeeded in removing the hardcore and the jungle from the music, and focussing instead on minimal drums and bass.

Now there are numerous other examples of 'straight line stuff' in the music before... Basment Recordings, for example, put out countless stompy techno breakbeat way before Photek... But I think it was that particular combination of factors (linear arranging, 'proper' melodies, clean production) that seperated him from most of the pack - and which elevated him into a god-like figure for the 'Intelligence' cru.

I say I noticed all this most in Photek but that's cos he held my attention most - and still excited me - unlike most GLR after the first few releases. Natch they were right in with the 'proper arrangements' line of thought from the word go... but as the atmos thing soon became its own distinct identity, I'd say it's safe to assume that Photek proved the bigger influence on the d+b scene in the end - especially in the field of production.

You could really hear that by the time he dropped his first LP - but maybe even more so with his subsequent 12"s on his own label... straight lines made it easier to focus the listener's attention on the production.... all that needed to happen after that was for someone to fully exploit the posibilities for applying this aesthetic to a style more directly influenced by Techno - and that's where Optical and Ed Rush took up the torch.

The linear blueprint kinda took over after that IMO. I think a crucial factor in that happening was not just the new emphasis on production values - but also the removal of reggae and hiphop as key sample sources. Changing tastes (and maybe also the increased tempo) meant that the half-speed flavours provided by these forms of music disappeared. So too the fracturing, explosive quality of Jungle. I think it's safe to say that practically NO drum n bass since has really reinvestigated this feature of both Hardcore and Jungle - even Paradox makes extremely linear d+b, where you gotta get on the train and then stay on it for the next 6 minutes or so.

Thoughts?
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Other contributors to the straight lines bizness: BRISTOL but especially V Recordings. Ve-ry Dj-friendly... too much so in fact... it used to get on my tits when I used to hear DJs mix one Bristol tune into another - I mean - WTF was the point?!?! ....one reason I evolved my own personal rule about never mixing 2 tunes by the same artist together - or even 2 tunes on the same label (although I made honourable exceptions in the acs eof both Headz and the R - cos one release would be so different from the next).

But yeah Grin : straight lines. Much like Ed Rush & Optical - or even Paradox - despite the rhythmic asides.
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So.. you may ask - if straight lines d+b sounds good, who cares? A fair point, but for me, the broken-up shit really excited me more, mainly cos that's what made it sound different from all other forms of dance music that I'd heard.

BTW, listen to the original mix of Super Sharp Shooter by Zinc. The main rhythms are almost dumb-ass (Zinc was always a bit of a cheesy fucker), but check the arrangement - it's all over the place!
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"Very interesting Naphta!"

"Yes, yes it is!!"

Neutral

ANYWAY................. Hahaha what else is so good about the non-straight lines approach? Well, it always impressed me more that these stop-start tracks could mash-up a dance cos let's face it: repeat a straight beat enough times and anyone will at least nod their head. However, punctuate it with dropouts that really fuck with your sense of Time (not Timing BTW - TIME) and the real kinetic worokout of the breakbeat is, IMO, far better appreciated. After all, how broken is a breakbeat that runs in a straight line for 7 minutes?
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Another thing - the stop-start thing seemed much more in line with reggae: I love the way a reggae Dj will stop the tune and then flip it over to the Version in his own good time... no fears that the groove will somehow die or that the dancefloor will all walk off, no Sir!
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I think that's fairly accurate Naphta. One thing that happened was the fetishisation of the means rather than the ends when it came to the technology of musical production.

Producers after 96 got excited because they got to grips with not just the sampler (and, lets not forget the potentialities that the emu opened up) but with synths as well, so in many cases they became interested in exploring what they good do with the sounds they generated, rather than they found lying around in the record collection. I suspect this contributed to the trend towards the exploration (or mindless repetition) of one idea over 6 minutes.

Lets not be too harsh though - these straight lines were radical, at least for a couple of years. They offered (the illusion?) of progress and evolution away from the frankly tired sounds of a lot of jungle at the time - amen without a lot of heaviness around 100hz (interesting aside, has anyone noticed how amens have got heavier compared to what was being made in 95? People are eqing them differently, probably Fade 2 Black was the first tune to deploy the modern amen sound, anyway, I digress), 808 bassline, that sort of thing. I think mastery of equipment was just another manifestation of the 'street science' aesthetic which led to such wonderful sampladelic experiments.

I always thought the No-U Turn sound (Torque era and before) was really interesting as they were definitely different - obtuse breaks, insane distorted basslines - but also had that air of sampladelic menace with the hip hop samples and what not. The walked a perfect line for their time, in my opinion.
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Naphta Wrote:So.. you may ask - if straight lines d+b sounds good, who cares? A fair point, but for me, the broken-up shit really excited me more, mainly cos that's what made it sound different from all other forms of dance music that I'd heard.

BTW, listen to the original mix of Super Sharp Shooter by Zinc. The main rhythms are almost dumb-ass (Zinc was always a bit of a cheesy fucker), but check the arrangement - it's all over the place!

yep its an amiga tune all over, Becuase not using cubase or logic takes away the linear view of the arrangment, Thats my theory,

You can't see the whole tune at once so its more useing your ears then looking, this could be a major factor, also 4 hero used to use creator (atari)rather than cubase as well as many other "early producers.

i would def say ed and optical brought the linear arrangment style to the forefront i certainly noticed the differnce as a dj and funnly enough thats when my mixing took a turn for the worse as evry tune i would buy would be arranged in similar ways,
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dsp Wrote:yep its an amiga tune all over, Becuase not using cubase or logic takes away the linear view of the arrangment, Thats my theory,

You can't see the whole tune at once so its more useing your ears then looking, this could be a major factor, also 4 hero used to use creator (atari)rather than cubase as well as many other "early producers.

i would def say ed and optical brought the linear arrangment style to the forefront i certainly noticed the differnce as a dj and funnly enough thats when my mixing took a turn for the worse as evry tune i would buy would be arranged in similar ways,

That is interesting...did the Emu, skunk and Logic/Cubase (as opposed to trackers) give us techstep/straight lines in the late nineties???? Hahaha
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naphta Wrote:i think it's safe to say that practically no drum n bass since has really reinvestigated this feature of both hardcore and jungle - even paradox makes extremely linear d+b, where you gotta get on the train and then stay on it for the next 6 minutes or so.

this is non-linear...

fanu - defunct drums' depression decade

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Logos Wrote:Lets not be too harsh though - these straight lines were radical, at least for a couple of years.


I dunno about radical - they were refined, distilled - even purer for sure. Ultaimtely though, in the broader scheme of things, they made drum n bass music sound more like other forms of music i.e.

intro/melody/bass/drop/workout/breakdown/roll-out

Quote:I always thought the No-U Turn sound (Torque era and before) was really interesting as they were definitely different - obtuse breaks, insane distorted basslines - but also had that air of sampladelic menace with the hip hop samples and what not. The walked a perfect line for their time, in my opinion.

I agree - I loved all the early NUT 12"s up to 'Technology'. But the stuff that was ruffest for me was probably Gangsta Hardstep and Guncheck - which were less techno and more bastard mutant dread hiphop!

BTW: also check the arrangement of Dred Bass's massive 'Dead Dred' anthem for more of what I'm talking about..
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techstep brought a definite stagnation to the music.the beat came second place to the weird bass noises that were developed back then,and tunes relied on atmospherics instead of the dynamics that were part and parcel of the early hardcore stuff.the excitement level of the music definitely took a dive .
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dsp Wrote:yep its an amiga tune all over, becuase not using cubase or logic takes away the linear view of the arrangment, thats my theory,

you can't see the whole tune at once so its more useing your ears then looking, this could be a major factor, also 4 hero used to use creator (atari)rather than cubase as well as many other "early producers.

excellent point dsp!!! the whole visual thing to cubase is soooo habit-forming - wrecks my fucking head sometimes i tellya (but i'm too afraid to turn to a tracker Nervous - i've seen polska using one and all them numbers freak me out!!)

Quote:i would def say ed and optical brought the linear arrangment style to the forefront i certainly noticed the differnce as a dj and funnly enough thats when my mixing took a turn for the worse as evry tune i would buy would be arranged in similar ways,

big time. that period changed the way i mixed too, and i'm still recovering...
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statto Wrote:this is non-linear...

fanu - defunct drums' depression decade

[Image: fanudrunk.gif]

well observed statto.... i didn't mean to say there weren't singular exceptions.. but...
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deckjunkie Wrote:techstep brought a definite stagnation to the music.the beat came second place to the weird bass noises that were developed back then,and tunes relied on atmospherics instead of the dynamics that were part and parcel of the early hardcore stuff.the excitement level of the music definitely took a dive .

Xyxthumbs
exactly... the explosive quality Icon_yippee disappeared Sad2
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As did Macc from this thread hahahahahahaa!!!! Not enough Drumworks for ya Mr. Maccster?! Teef
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naphta Wrote:
dsp Wrote:yep its an amiga tune all over, becuase not using cubase or logic takes away the linear view of the arrangment, thats my theory,

you can't see the whole tune at once so its more useing your ears then looking, this could be a major factor, also 4 hero used to use creator (atari)rather than cubase as well as many other "early producers.

excellent point dsp!!! the whole visual thing to cubase is soooo habit-forming - wrecks my fucking head sometimes i tellya (but i'm too afraid to turn to a tracker Nervous - i've seen polska using one and all them numbers freak me out!!)

Quote:i would def say ed and optical brought the linear arrangment style to the forefront i certainly noticed the differnce as a dj and funnly enough thats when my mixing took a turn for the worse as evry tune i would buy would be arranged in similar ways,

big time. that period changed the way i mixed too, and i'm still recovering...


well using trackers ain't so hard and using midi u could in theory arrange ya tune with a tracker then import the midi file into cubase or what ever anyway so i may give it a go one day load up my spare computer with fast tracker and trigger my emu and synths on my pc Cool yeh dead dred was all over the place too, sooooo many of the records i own from pre 97 are like that , maybe because the pople producing at the time did not even think about the arrangement and just listened, which really is what we should all do, i to like to turn my screen off when listening to tunes to see if it sound right and is arranged in a way that sounds good, but def cubase causes repetitve arrangement injury for me and i want to break out of it
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dsp Wrote:I to like to turn my screen off when listening to tunes to see if it sound right and is arranged in a way that sounds good

Big time - it's the only way to REALLY hear what's going on!

Quote:cubase causes repetitve arrangement injury for me

Hahaha
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This is a long shot but why don't we all ( producers ) in this thread make a tune with this in mind and post the results? Grin

Then again who am i kidding.. i never finsh anything anyway.. Hahaha
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yeah its a real problem finishing tunes eh! you loose interest in the loop and want to make something else ,thats why its always better to make tunes with other people ,you make a bit and then the other person adds their angle on it and you buzz off each other ,and something totally unpredictable comes out of it.i'm into a co-production idea with you guys.how do we go about getting that togeather?
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