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How is Digital Clipping Bad? (Formerly known as "Eh????????)

#51
tricks eh? Chin
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#52
'Techniques', then Teef
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#53
good analysis macc Xyxthumbs
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#54
well i meant what are they, i thought you had some amazing trick to use but reading it again i suppose that would be compression Oops
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#55
tyler Wrote:well i meant what are they, i thought you had some amazing trick to use but reading it again i suppose that would be compression Oops

No Icon_razz :d Teef
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#56
OK, firstly, thanks Macc for your patience and time when replying.

>>> "I am also guessing that in the tune you spammed loads of us with razz a while back, the drums were done this way."

This is a tune without ANY dynamics processing - they are as clean as the day they were recorded on my kit. I think this proves that, unless you "look" at the tune on an editor or analyse it to hell (and further, if you're Macc Hahaha), you wont notice the diference!

>>> " then essentially telling us we're all wrong."

When did I say that?

>>>"Erm, it is a 440k file - why didn't you just attach it?"

Tried it, but it wouldn't accept it; I even tried attatching a blank text file as a test but it must have been malfunctioning...

>>>"Forgive me not understanding excatly what method you used to do this, but to me it looks like you clipped your break, then layered an extra kick (either clipped or not), over the previous one and ran all that to your master out. Or was this done using your 'clip everything above 300Hz' method?"

Firstly, when I said 300Hz, I meant 130Hz, that was a mistake. Ok here's how I do it:
:arrow: Make two files, one high-passed just above the kick (usually 130Hz)
:arrow: Clip the high-passed one.
:arrow: Noise-gate the low-passed one so you just have the kicks and you remove the pointless bass in the snares/rides
:arrow: Turn down the snares until they're preaking at about -4dB (it varies).
:arrow: Mix in the kicks at 0db so that they just clip. This is so that the kicks are louder than everything else so have a "Punch" to compensate them being low down in the frequency spectrum where it is hardER to hear. THAT is why you get the slight peak in the kicks, yeah?

>>>"if I had no speakers I would never have found it (it starts one half of a wave cycle after the start of the selection);"

Exactly, but you can still hear it, right? Look, I see what you're saying about flatness but people play my tunes out and Bailey's even played one on his show so it cant be that bad can it? And Fanu clips harder than me to the point where it's quite blatantly distorted, even to someone who doesn't produce.
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#57
Fanu mixes down on an analogue soundcraft desk though, as far as I know.

As others have pointed out what happens to your signal when it clips differs in a digital and analogue environment (and then within the analogue environment depending). So, distortion per se is not the issue here - we are talking about what destruction you do in a purely digital environment aren't we?


P.S no one is saying you can't use digital clipping as a sonic tool, you can do what the hell you like.But that's not what we are discussing in this thread - its more technical i.e. about understanding exactly what happens to your audio when you choose to go down that route, and why it differs from other ways you can push your levels and distort.
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#58
Logos Wrote:As others have pointed out what happens to your signal when it clips differs in a digital and analogue environment (and then within the analogue environment depending). So, distortion per se is not the issue here - we are talking about what destruction you do in a purely digital environment aren't we?

I dont get you;

:arrow: How is Analogue clipping OK but digital clipping isn't?
:arrow: When Fanu makes a CD, he's converting his analogue clipping to digital clipping so how does that work?
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#59
bhima Wrote:
Logos Wrote:As others have pointed out what happens to your signal when it clips differs in a digital and analogue environment (and then within the analogue environment depending). So, distortion per se is not the issue here - we are talking about what destruction you do in a purely digital environment aren't we?

I dont get you;

:arrow: How is Analogue clipping OK but digital clipping isn't?
:arrow: When Fanu makes a CD, he's converting his analogue clipping to digital clipping so how does that work?

1) Read the whole of your own bloody thread !!!

scope Wrote:Both analog and digital media have an upper limit beyond which they can no longer accurately represent amplitude. Analog clipping (or overdrive or distortion) varies in quality depending on the medium. A tube amplifier, for example, has a much warmer distortion than a solid state amplifier. In each case the upper amplitudes are being altered, distorting the waveform and changing the timbre, but the alterations are slightly different. Digital clipping, in contrast, is always the same. Once an amplitude of 1111111111111111 (the maximum value in a 16 bit resolution) is reached, no higher amplitudes can be represented. The result is not the smooth, rounded flattening of analog clipping, but a harsh slicing of off the top of the waveform, and an unpleasant timbral result.

2) He isnt converting analog clipping to digital clipping..He'll bounce his analog mix down and track it into the computer, snsuring that levels dont go over 0dB, to deliberatley AVOID digital clipping.


Dude, please read the replies that have been posted in this very thread..
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#60
bhima Wrote:I dont get you;

:arrow: How is Analogue clipping OK but digital clipping isn't?
:arrow: When Fanu makes a CD, he's converting his analogue clipping to digital clipping so how does that work?

basically like Bob said earlier, Digital clipping = loss of information. Analogue clipping will just soflty distort the information. ( i think... bob will probably come on hear and cuss me!)

also, putting something onto CD is not gonna change anything... its just a playback device really. its not gonna change what you did in the first place.
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#61
bhima Wrote:>>> "i am also guessing that in the tune you spammed loads of us with razz a while back, the drums were done this way."

this is a tune without any dynamics processing - they are as clean as the day they were recorded on my kit. i think this proves that, unless you "look" at the tune on an editor or analyse it to hell (and further, if you're macc Hahaha), you wont notice the diference!

listen mate, if you want to get sarcy, fuck off and do it elsewhere. either you are interested in my opinion or not. don't come here asking for advice and then knocking people who, despite not knowing you from adam, have put time aside which they could be using doing much better things. better things than educating ungrateful novices. there's nothing wrong with admitting you don't know something. it's very irritating when it's painfully obvious you don't know something but refuse to be proven wrong. why do you even bother coming on here? i'm also fairly willing to bet that you don't even realise you're doing it. whatever, you've given me the arsehole now. Mad

anyway, back to the topic. i'd hazard a guess that when recording, you clipped the ad convertors on input. or maybe they were just recorded badly. through a crap soundcard. whatever, they didn't sound very good to me.

you should also be aware that i didn't listen to the tune for very long, i am basing my guesses here on a half-remembered 2 minute listening of a tune i was spammed with several months ago. i didn't listen to that much of the tune as i didn't think it was very good (especially after they way you hyped it up). i have better things to do than sit and listen in an in depth critical fashion to people who spam me tunes. i've got friends' music to listen to in depth, or stuff i get sent from other producers/people/musicians.



Quote:when did i say that?

your repeated insistence on saying 'well it sounds fine to me', despite numerous explanations why it doesn't (or rather why it could sound much better), is implicitly telling people their opinion is irrelevant. it may well sound fine to you, that's great. but your dogmatic faith in your own opinion and apparent refusal to accept the advice of those (and i don't just mean myself here) who are more experienced and knowledgeable than yourself is, to all intents and purposes, telling them that in your opinion, they're wrong. again - why bother asking if you are just going to stick your fingers in your ears and go 'la la laaa'?



Quote:firstly, when i said 300hz, i meant 130hz, that was a mistake.

if it was such a tried and tested, well-used method, that seems an odd mistake to make. the phrase 'making it up as you go along' is at the forefront of my mind, i can't imagine why.

and you still haven't answered - why do you want to clip anyway? and answers of the 'well other people do' sort are not acceptable - i want to know what your theoretical/artistic basis for doing it is. it obviously isn't for dynamic control, as has been established, and to everyone on here except for yourself (oh and ashes, but he's always mr contrary) it sounds shit, so.....?


Quote:ok here's how i do it:
make two files, one high-passed just above the kick (usually 130hz)

so kicks are all the same pitch, right? and they only consist of one frequency, which lies below 130hz, right? none of that kick is anywhere above 130hz then? carry on;

Quote:clip the high-passed one.

which, as has been proven (and was the whole starting point for this highly frustrating thread) adds all kinds of shit as well as removing all kind of detail from your sample, carry on;

Quote:noise-gate the low-passed one so you just have the kicks and you remove the pointless bass in the snares/rides

also removing any tail on the kicks that falls below the gate threshold, carry on;

Quote:turn down the snares until they're preaking at about -4db (it varies).

it varies? you don't say! carry on;

Quote:mix in the kicks at 0db so that they just clip. this is so that the kicks are louder than everything else so have a "punch" to compensate them being low down in the frequency spectrum where it is harder to hear. that is why you get the slight peak in the kicks, yeah?

don't patronise me. Nono

and volume and punch are not the same things at all. another fundamental thing that i'd love to explain to you... if you'd listen.


Quote:exactly, but you can still hear it, right?


i simply can't think what to say to this. it sums the whole thing up. you are once again completely missing the point.

Quote:look, i see what you're saying about flatness but people play my tunes out and bailey's even played one on his show so it cant be that bad can it?


i find your absolutely incessant name-dropping extremely tiresome. Neutral


also, as good a dj as he is, i wouldn't take bailey playing the tune as some sort of qualification of your dynamic processing. he's a dj, not an engineering geek/enthusiast. in my experience most dj's don't give a shit about production geekery, and that's fine, it isn't their job, or their hobby. down to a certain level, dj's don't give a shit about production. if you want to take the same stance, that's fine - but don't come on here asking about stuff and then saying 'ahh well it's all bollocks anyway'. it's fucking annoying.

i remind you - you asked about this as apparently you didn't, well, don't know anything about it.



Quote:and fanu clips harder than me to the point where it's quite blatantly distorted, even to someone who doesn't produce.

yep, that's right, he does distort fairly heavily. your ears show a lack of experience again though.

the thing here is how he distorts, the method. as we have all tried to explain to you, digital clipping and analogue clipping (as used by fanu and billions of others) affect the signal in massively different ways. i'd sit here and type it all out, but what's the point? you're right and you won't hear any different.

i've wasted enough of my time trying to demonstrate to you, through pictures and fairly detailed explanations, the answer to the question in the title of your thread. in response, you have repeatedly put across the sentiment that you know best, when it is plainly obvious - to anyone with a modicum of engineering experience in the digital domain - that you haven't got a clue what you're on about.

there's nothing wrong with not knowing something, but your obstinate refusal to accept the advice of those who do (yes, objectively) know better than you 'because bailey played it' is highly annoying. i'm guessing you won't even understand why you've annoyed me so greatly - and it wasn't just your last post.

in summary;

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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#62
If you are going to ask a question..at least listen to and consider the answers you get Baffled
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#63
wow, err... Nervous Sad2


yeah, i have come accross as a dick; mainly because i have never had time to properly read/reply to what people are saying and answer key questions; i'm on and off here often...

i'm not ungrateful; i admit i'm wrong when it comes to digital clipping. of course i know nothing; if i knew it all, i wouldn't have asked... i asked the question and came accross like i was denying the answer... as said before, thank's for your detail in the posts; i've read it but not understood a bit of it so have misinterpreted what you were saying which lead to ignorance.

what i was saying was that it wasn't a totally tried and tested method, if it was, i wouldn't be asking the question in the first place... the reason i clip is to control dynamics perfectly and get the whole thing a bit louder.

i seem to have gathered that digital clipping sounds worse than analogue because of its limited bit depth...? so would increasing the bit-depth make it sound better (in theory) or have i completely missed it again?
Icon_question Nervous Baffled


or have you completely given up on this thread? Baffled
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#64
The difference between digital and analogue clipping is basically about the difference between digital and analgue information.

Go an read up on what happens to information in the digital and analogue domains.

Our DNA is digitally encoded for a good reason. On the other hand the reason why your VHS tapes degrade over generations is to do with what happens to information in an analogue medium.
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#65
bhima Wrote:I seem to have gathered that digital clipping sounds worse than analogue because of its limited bit depth...? So would increasing the bit-depth make it sound better (in theory)

Forgetting about levels, db etc, each sample can only lie within a limited range of numbers (for 16 bits its -32768 to 32768 or something) and so when you increase the volume so much that the value for that individual sample goes out of that range, it just gets set to the highest.

Imagine a nice sine wave going up and getting clipped before it reaches the top, it will just stop dead and be completelty flat until the values drop below the maximum again.

EDIT: see macc's picture of digital clipping a few pages back

With analog on the other hand, the way clipping happens is more complex (I dont know quite why or how it happens) and will result in something much 'smoother' for want of a better word happening. I imagine it is because there is a delay or curve of some sort going on rather than a 'brick wall' like in digital clipping (this is nothing to do with brick wall limiting though!). This sounds a lot less harsh than a sudden change.
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#66
So it's more like limiting?
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#67
I think I have a mastering tool from Steinberg which lets you adjust the "softness". -10 is a normal clip and +10 is normal limiting. Maybe Analogue clipping is somewhere inbetween and maybe I should start using that instead...


If you look at most pop/rock tunes, you'll see that, during mastering, they've been clipped but it is a more soft clip like you describe... This has opened up a new doorway of investigation; cheers!
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#68
"Also removing any tail on the kicks that falls below the gate threshold, carry on;"

Actually, I like to to do that because, if the kicks are only about 60m/s long, they dont intefere with the bass frequencies so much. and the bass note can become hidden by the higher pitch note... And melody in the bass is important to my tracks..
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#69
id really suggest you take the time to go over everything thats said in here. you are jumping to conclusions about parts of peoples posts without trying to understand the big pictue.

but really, it seems to me as though the first thing you need to do is go search on the differences between analog and digital recording, and go from there, then revisit this thread.

i cant recommend enough a book by bob katz - matsering audio, the art and the science. it will teach you a great deal.

but before you try reading that go buy a book called 'basic digital recording'. its by paul white (sound on sound etc), is only a fiver, and its a pocket sized reference that will teach you the basics needed to understand the concepts being discussed here.

good luck Xyxthumbs
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#70
my five cents:


who gives a cock.
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#71
Very useful dgoHn Roll
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#72
dgoHn Wrote:my five cents:


who gives a cock.

Hahaha
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#73
could someone just show me how to open the volume control in windows? these headphones are loud and my ears hurt.
bare
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#74
Start > programs > accesories > Volume control

maybe it's the digital clipping Teef
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#75
very informative thread this. should be able to give it gold stars or gold hippos or something. Cheers Scope & Macc for the links to other material outside this thread.
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