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How is Digital Clipping Bad? (Formerly known as "Eh????????)

#76
thread from the dead....Falcon
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#77
i like digital clipping; my take on it is basically unless you are running mackies with those titanium dome fucking tweeters and your d/a converters are too accurate and so the clipping sounds like metal being shredded with all the consequences of a metal shredder on your ears (and you're not into that), digital clipping to a certin point on a whole song makes it sound badass thru the d/a/ converters of a mixer, a stereo channel, softer speakers or any other analog stage.. digital does not remain digital if you play it out into the world; it's a certain aesthetic i've grown into especially with industrial and hardcore sounds, and the new dsp chips and converters in certain fx processors that take digital clipping to not only a new extreme but very tasty distortion textures useful for the expression of those aesthetics..

.. so i've played the tracks from an unmastered cd with clearly clipping levels and i can say i'm pleased with the results, if nobody else is.. i love the sound of a sound system being pushed to the limit, whether it's a tube amp or a MOSFET and digital clipping artfully applied in a track whether using software distortion devices to achieve the sound or not (usually not) does the trick very nicely.. probably not for d'n'b, where your shit absolutely must sound like Simon @ the Exchange or Andy C mixed it.
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#78
seti Wrote:i like digital clipping; my take on it is basically unless you are running mackies with those titanium dome fucking tweeters and your d/a converters are too accurate and so the clipping sounds like metal being shredded with all the consequences of a metal shredder on your ears (and you're not into that), digital clipping to a certin point on a whole song makes it sound badass thru the d/a/ converters of a mixer, a stereo channel, softer speakers or any other analog stage.. digital does not remain digital if you play it out into the world; it's a certain aesthetic i've grown into especially with industrial and hardcore sounds, and the new dsp chips and converters in certain fx processors that take digital clipping to not only a new extreme but very tasty distortion textures useful for the expression of those aesthetics..

.. so i've played the tracks from an unmastered cd with clearly clipping levels and i can say i'm pleased with the results, if nobody else is.. i love the sound of a sound system being pushed to the limit, whether it's a tube amp or a mosfet and digital clipping artfully applied in a track whether using software distortion devices to achieve the sound or not (usually not) does the trick very nicely.. probably not for d'n'b, where your shit absolutely must sound like simon @ the exchange or andy c mixed it.

you have odd ears

Thumbd
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#79
scope Wrote:i cant recommend enough a book by bob katz - matsering audio, the art and the science. it will teach you a great deal.


Falcon


bob katz is the bomb!

everyone should read his books and website.


http://www.digido.com/
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#80
SETI Wrote:i like digital clipping; my take on it is basically unless you are running mackies with those titanium dome fucking tweeters and your d/a converters are too accurate and so the clipping sounds like metal being shredded with all the consequences of a metal shredder on your ears (and you're not into that), digital clipping to a certin point on a whole song makes it sound badass thru the d/a/ converters of a mixer, a stereo channel, softer speakers or any other analog stage.. digital does not remain digital if you play it out into the world; it's a certain aesthetic i've grown into especially with industrial and hardcore sounds, and the new dsp chips and converters in certain fx processors that take digital clipping to not only a new extreme but very tasty distortion textures useful for the expression of those aesthetics..

.. so i've played the tracks from an unmastered cd with clearly clipping levels and i can say i'm pleased with the results, if nobody else is.. i love the sound of a sound system being pushed to the limit, whether it's a tube amp or a MOSFET and digital clipping artfully applied in a track whether using software distortion devices to achieve the sound or not (usually not) does the trick very nicely.. probably not for d'n'b, where your shit absolutely must sound like Simon @ the Exchange or Andy C mixed it.



yikes.....no thanks.
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#81
scope Wrote:you have odd ears




maybe, iyo.. i just have a diff. aesthetic pref. than those who like dnb and hardhouse. to me, these sounds are pure and do way more for me than the overly juiced-up, wet, processed-to-death sounds of most dance music.. i mean, i do all-acoustic recordings and use pure acoustic sounds in the mix sometimes because of what i'm into hearing.. certainly a lot of people who do this sort of thing, and people who do the all-out digital hardcore like out-of-phase nin or bloody fist 8-bit mayhem so i don't think of it as odd.
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#82
SETI Wrote:
scope Wrote:you have odd ears




maybe, iyo.. i just have a diff. aesthetic pref. than those who like dnb and hardhouse. to me, these sounds are pure and do way more for me than the overly juiced-up, wet, processed-to-death sounds of most dance music.. i mean, i do all-acoustic recordings and use pure acoustic sounds in the mix sometimes because of what i'm into hearing.. certainly a lot of people who do this sort of thing, and people who do the all-out digital hardcore like out-of-phase nin or bloody fist 8-bit mayhem so i don't think of it as odd.

you think I dont like music other than d&b? I rarely ever listen to d&b these days, bar most of the stuff from people / labels who frequent this forum. I rarely every listen to hard house.

In answer to the last part of your post, Keith Hillebrandt, Alan Moulder etc know the difference between sweet sounding distortion (and when I say sweet I certainly dont necessarily mean not nasty) and raw shitty sounding digital clipping of converters.

Its important to remember that running plug-ins hot does not usually equate to the same type of truncation.
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#83
scope Wrote:you think I dont like music other than d&b? I rarely ever listen to d&b these days, bar most of the stuff from people / labels who frequent this forum. I rarely every listen to hard house.

In answer to the last part of your post, Keith Hillebrandt, Alan Moulder etc know the difference between sweet sounding distortion (and when I say sweet I certainly dont necessarily mean not nasty) and raw shitty sounding digital clipping of converters.

Its important to remember that running plug-ins hot does not usually equate to the same type of truncation.

have you heard the clipping of the AudioDNA chip??? -this is all subjective shit, Moulder has committed some of the rawest sounds ever to digital and most of the time it's Trent who says, "i want to record this out-of-phase" and Alan does it.

i like raw, shitty sounding shit.. as an artist, i have a subjective taste for that which produces revulsion in others.. doesn't make me any more wrong or right.
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#84
SETI Wrote:
scope Wrote:you think I dont like music other than d&b? I rarely ever listen to d&b these days, bar most of the stuff from people / labels who frequent this forum. I rarely every listen to hard house.

In answer to the last part of your post, Keith Hillebrandt, Alan Moulder etc know the difference between sweet sounding distortion (and when I say sweet I certainly dont necessarily mean not nasty) and raw shitty sounding digital clipping of converters.

Its important to remember that running plug-ins hot does not usually equate to the same type of truncation.

have you heard the clipping of the AudioDNA chip??? -this is all subjective shit, Moulder has committed some of the rawest sounds ever to digital and most of the time it's Trent who says, "i want to record this out-of-phase" and Alan does it.

???

The AudioDNA chip is a DSP chip, not a converter.

And what does phase have to do with digital clipping ?
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#85
........ i mean phase has as much to do with audio clipping as anything else, if we're talking about "sound quality".


...the audioDNA chip aint no germanium transistor when it comes to distortion, that's what i'm saying.. without the benefit of converters, it would be as "harsh" as anything else. i personally don't think that the clipping occurring from excessive levels in the digital realm is too much different from the raw output that i hear from a distortion pedal, owing to the converters on the other side.. and so, i use that sound knowing that the converters of whatever playback device are going to handle the raw clipping in the same way.
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#86
SETI Wrote:........ i mean phase has as much to do with audio clipping as anything else, if we're talking about "sound quality".

phase has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with clipping !

SETI Wrote:...the audioDNA chip aint no germanium transistor when it comes to distortion, that's what i'm saying..

The audioDNA chip is just a DSP device. What it does is entirely dependent on the embedded software that its running.
As I said above running plugins (or algorithms on a DSP device) hot is a different discussion to clipping DA or AD converters.

SETI Wrote:without the benefit of converters, it would be as "harsh" as anything else.

This makes no sense whatsoever...

SETI Wrote:i personally don't think that the clipping occurring from excessive levels in the digital realm is too much different from the raw output that i hear from a distortion pedal

Funny, it sounds different to me...

SETI Wrote:owing to the converters on the other side.. and so, i use that sound knowing that the converters of whatever playback device are going to handle the raw clipping in the same way.

Again, the sound of a software algorithm being run with levels over 0dBfs is different to the sound of clipping a set of DA or AD converters, and neither is good.

More expensive converters (eg Lavry, Mytek, Apogee, Cranesong) feature a softclip technology. The Lavry Blue AD for example has both analog and digital limiting built in. They also have a special clipping feature which adds 6dB boost digitally - but with an algorithmn that compresses the top top 6dB to emulate tape. Shitty converters clip in an entirely different way - the audio just breaks up into a crackly mess.
Maybe you're just the only person Ive ever met who likes that.

Even without the softclip features, gently clipping very good converters introduces minimal distortion. The same cannot be said for average converters.

The distortion effect of really clipping converters is especially noticable with acoustic instruments (as you said you are mainly recording) and voice, and sounds god damn awful.

Plain and simple.
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#87
when i said "acoustic" i didn't say i was applying these techniques to those... however, i am applying these techniques to audio recorded using microphones, electric guitars both miked and direct, and bass mostly direct, and sampled drums inside the machine and thru outboard samplers/drum machines.. like what has been discussed in another topic here, the clipping tends to sound good on different systems for different people.. i just happen to like the clipping i'm getting by running some of these songs into 6-7db in the red.. horses for courses. i'm not trying to make hip hop i'm trying to make extremely abrasive music that maxes out the levels and by no means am i trying to get it perfect.




the fact that a germanium transistor clipping thru nothing that even closely resembles a "soft converter" would give one a shocking spike in the ear makes at least a bit of sense (speaking from experience here). Neutral
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#88
scope Wrote:phase has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with clipping !



...listen to Jimi Hendrix sometime. Neutral
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#89
What are you on about? Baffled

Could you explain what you mean in more detail? Smile
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#90
Macc Wrote:What are you on about? Baffled

Could you explain what you mean in more detail? Smile



Lol how can i do just that after typing that heap of b.s. Icon_question :P
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#91
ok, lets give it a try.. my preferred clipping

[Image: tyson_license.jpg]


the preferred clipping

[Image: title.jpg]


Teef
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#92
I know that Hahaha

I meant more what Jimi Hendrix had to do with phase (not the effect, the principle) and what all that had to do with clipping.

Smile
[Image: protabl3.gif]
Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#93
Macc Wrote:I know that Hahaha

I meant more what Jimi Hendrix had to do with phase (not the effect, the principle) and what all that had to do with clipping.

Smile


i'm talking about the effect.. if you hear some of Jimi's live recordings, you can hear him switch the guitar to an out-of-phase sound every now and then, which would have a tremendous effect on the distortion, it would turn from creamy and smoothly saturated to spiky and trebly.. and sometimes he would use a phaser to fill out his sound when the electicity was doing wierd things onstage, like the polarity switching and other mayhem.. he even explains things a bit at the end of the Stockholm gig about how the electricity is doing wierd things to his "English amps and American guitar" (sic), and everybody knows that phasing and flanging can distort a signal.
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#94
Of course to all that... but that's nothing to do with what we were talking about previously. It's not as if every DA convertor has a built in phaser effect Hahaha
[Image: protabl3.gif]
Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#95
Macc Wrote:Of course to all that... but that's nothing to do with what we were talking about previously. It's not as if every DA convertor has a built in phaser effect Hahaha

yeh lets see if any of those swanky "soft clippers" do that for a dollar. Grin


..but i've found that interesting things happen when you copy audio from one track to another track so you have two identical tracks playing side by side..
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#96
Yeah, it gets louder (when you're using a sample accurate sequencer like SX Wink ).
[Image: protabl3.gif]
Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#97
Macc Wrote:Yeah, it gets louder (when you're using a sample accurate sequencer like SX Wink ).


yep (thats the case with my sampler).. but i don't use cubase, i use some janky older thing and so cool things happen when i line things up, or move one just a microscopic little bit, crazy shit happens (anything from phasing to distorted artifacts to chorus) and ends up on the render, praise Dog. i like it when software does shit that it's not supposed to, like this version of a piece of software where the automation doesn't quite work right..


..well, you know i'm crazy now so, i know :P
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#98
It's not like that's news.

I'd rather have it do the same crazy shit every time, cos that's what I told it to, unless I want random crazy shit, which is equally easy to do Smile What I mean is, I'd rather have the option of perfection, but I don;t always use it. Smile

But yes, cool things can happen like that.

What is it you use? Smile
[Image: protabl3.gif]
Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#99
Macc Wrote:What is it you use? Smile


i use my right hand.
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Fairly obvious that, you being a chronic wanker and all.

But which sequencer/arrangement tool/tape recorder+razor blade/abacus/quill+manuscript paper/hammer+chisel+slate/chalk+cave wall do you use?
[Image: protabl3.gif]
Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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