Create an account


ATTN: FANU-san

#51
Tritone; of course you cant limit yourself like that. Neither macc nor I are saying 'never use sidechaining'.
Ive used sidechaining on a number of occassions in the last year on both my own stuff and on several projects Ive mixed commercially, but we're just trying to say that its not a substitution for getting things placed well in the soundscape. Mixing is difficult when you're starting out. It gets easier, but you're still always learning. But underneath, its principles remain simple.

About the 'right sounds'.
Its just an ideal scenario bob used to get his point across.

About the better setup. I love music gear. I am a certified gearslut, but I can mix just as well on a computer all ITB with some half decent plugs. Dont be fooled by any notion that a better setup will equate to better results...

id recommend a book called 'mixing with your mind'

http://www.mixingwithyourmind.com/

the site looks a bit cheesy but it really is an amazing book, completely different approach to most engineering books.
Reply

#52
i'll get back for more in a bit, but:

scope Wrote:fwiw i dont think you should take maccs words as saying 's/c comping is shit'.

the point macc and i are trying to get across is that its not a substitution for a poorly mixed drum track and bass track.

Xyxthumbs Xyxthumbs Xyxthumbs
[Image: protabl3.gif]
Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
Reply

#53
tritone theory Wrote:@Macc

would it not be somewhat limiting to only base your mixdowns on the idea of just using the "right sounds"? of course that's probably something you develop an ear for over time... i'd love to be able to have the right arsenal at my fingertips, but it may take some time to build up the right collection of sounds pertaining to what i want to do. but in theory, that is the essence of production, so i suppose there's 2 sides to the coin on that one. which means i am now having an argument with myself. could this mean I'M schizo? Icon123

It's anything but limiting - it frees your time, and it frees your mind.

If you have to 'shoehorn' something into your mix, the chances are it isn't necessary.

When you're creating sounds for your tune, some things will just fit in, no effort, no eq, nothing.

Sometimes you have to spend a lot of time really working to fit a certain thing into the mix, but it never quite seems to fit right. Cue endless hours of just nudging the eq on it this way, that way, back and forth, blah blah ad infinitum.


Guess which - in terms of the mix, in terms of the final complete result (song+sounds+mix), and in terms of your sanity (!) - is better?

It's a difficult thing to aim for, but over time I've found that I'd rather spend 20 minutes choosing sounds and so on to fit than spend 20 hours on trying to squeeze them in later and still never really being happy.

I've also found that the more I make music, the less eq I use. I tend to use eq a lot less than I used to, and when I do it is more for correction of a given sound or 'effect' purposes, than trying to get this and that and the other to all fit together. That last part isn't (generally) necessary, cos the sounds fit in the first place. Efficiency is the word here. Wink


I'm being very general - of course there are times where adjustments are necessary. But I try to keep the principle in mind that in (arguably) the most complex mix situation of them all - a full orchestra, with something like 60 players/instruments - they don't use ANYTHING at all. No eq, no comp, no nothing. The sounds, due to the quality of the players and the instruments they are playing, are spot on from the very source.

Now we're making dnb etc etc, not mixing an orchestra. But at least some of that principle should be borne in mind in ALL music. Put shit in, you get shit out. You can't polish a turd, even with sidechaining. Teef
[Image: protabl3.gif]
Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
Reply

#54
Macc Wrote:I've also found that the more I make music, the less eq I use. I tend to use eq a lot less than I used to, and when I do it is more for correction of a given sound or 'effect' purposes, than trying to get this and that and the other to all fit together. That last part isn't (generally) necessary, cos the sounds fit in the first place. Efficiency is the word here. Wink

macc, once again i totally agree, i rarely use eq (only subtractive and top and tailing) but truthfully its probably because i am lazy and would much rather piss about with sounds and beats than eq..

i have found tho, mixing at keynote the eq's are used, but mainly to put things in their right place, not eq to fit..

i have deff found that if you spend time finding things that fit it generally is much more efficient (and fun!!) than forcing things to fit
Reply

#55
Yeah, eq'ing something so that it sounds as good as possible is one thing, eq'ing to shoehorn it in is something else Smile
[Image: protabl3.gif]
Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
Reply

#56
Macc Wrote:Yeah, eq'ing something so that it sounds as good as possible is one thing, eq'ing to shoehorn it in is something else Smile

OT: shoehorns are genius.
Reply

#57
Hahaha
[Image: protabl3.gif]
Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
Reply

#58
yea i could do with one, all my shoes have broken backs because again i am too lazy to undo the laces..

hmmm anyone would think im a right lazy bastard...
Reply

#59
bobule Wrote:yea i could do with one, all my shoes have broken backs because again i am too lazy to undo the laces..

hmmm anyone would think im a right lazy bastard...

Hahaha
Reply

#60
Innit Bob Oops

:brukkupsheuxcreux:
[Image: protabl3.gif]
Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
Reply

#61
Macc Wrote:sheuxcreux

Hahaha
Reply

#62
Grin

once again thanks much for the words of wisdom guys... this should help a lot. and thanks a lot for the warm welcome as well. you all seem to be some down to earth heads. cheeky sometimes, but definitely down to earth. Hahaha

godspeed!

-aaron d.
Reply

Reply

#64
will check it out properly soon tritone, but enjoyed listening just now, albeit on a shit pair of speakers... Xyxthumbs
Reply

#65
scope Wrote:
Macc Wrote:
scope Wrote:if its to mix on you need to spend A WHOLE LOT of cash on cans to replace a set of monitors, and even then you cant judge stereo imaging properly, no matter what cans you're using.

I respectfully disagree Smile

I have big trouble doing stereo imaging on monitors after so much mixing on cans. No bother on cans Smile I know about HTF's and all that, but read this article at Sound On Sound Smile

Hugh Robjohns Wrote:In general, though, when listening via headphones the spatial image will be spread along a line running between the ears, and most definitely inside the head. We all get used to this fairly easily, but the real problem is that the linearity of the panning proportions is rather different from that experienced on loudspeakers. There is no simple way to adapt to this other than by building experience.

Smile

looks a good article - ill def read that properly soon.

im just going from my own experience here bob, and yes you are likely right - Ive mixed far more on monitors than cans..

the one thing you can never get away from is that with cans the left ear can never hear output from the right channel and vice versa.

@ Macc - check out this article:

http://www.bluebearsound.com/articles/headphones.htm

Quote:Whad'ya Mean I Can't Mix With Headphones????
by Bruce Valeriani, Mar 1/2003

On many of the recording forums I participate or moderate on, this question comes up time and again. It almost reaches the status of Urban Legend in recording circles, but even more intermediate recordists don't seem be able to understand the limitations on the use of headphones in the studio.

Here's what headphones ARE useful for - critical listening for noises or other sonic aberrations on individual tracks or mixes, and monitoring during tracking where the use of monitors would cause unwanted bleed. That's pretty much it.

"Hey! You left out mixing....!!"
Funny how that worked out, considering the title of the article! The truth is, headphones ARE NOT good mixing tools -- as a matter of fact, headphones don't make good tools at all for ANY sonic decisions.

"What are you talking about? Headphones take the room out of the equation, so it should make my mixes sound more consistent."
Well... audio engineering is full of techniques that at first appear to be common sense, and yet turn out to be the completely-wrong approach. While it's true that headphones DO take the room out of the equation, they also put your ears into two individual and very small, separate rooms all their own! Which leads to two issues...

1) Proximity and isolation - in using headphones, both your sense of stereo imaging and frequency response change... imaging is exaggerated due to the isolation of one ear from the other, and frequency response gets skewed in the bass and mid-range areas due to the proximity of the drivers to the ear. So you can't be sure of the relative levels of frequencies in that area of the spectrum.

Don't believe me? Try a simple test... Slap a pair of headphones on a decent-sounding synth/keyboard and find a patch you think sounds good through the phones. Now take the phones off and play that exact patch back through using monitors. 95% of the time you will hear a huge difference and the choice you made using headphones won't sound quite right played back on monitors, although it may have sounded excellent on the phones. Now imagine the same thing except with something as complex-sounding as a mix! As a matter of fact, try it - mix something using ONLY headphones, and then mix it again with monitors. The headphone mix will almost always be WAY off in terms of sonic balance.

2) Same headphones, different people - not only is response and imaging skewed using headphones, but to make matters worse, each person hears differently from every other person when listening on cans. The reason for this is that the response of each person's cilia (the parts of the ear responsible for detecting different frequency vibrations) is unique to each individual. This is critical because it means that the same song, through the same phones, will sound different to each person that listens to it! And you thought translating mixes using monitors is tough!!! With headphones it's almost impossible because a well-balanced sound is a moving target from person to person!

"But wait.... so what if the response is different for each person, why is that any different from monitors?"
Good question - there is a huge difference.... the "personalized-response" effect is much more pronounced with headphones due to the proximity of the cones to a person's ears. With monitors, the room acts as a frequency-response leveler, giving a more uniform response to each person hearing them, but with headphones, it's virtually direct contact between ears and the cones, there's no room effect to "level-out" the response.


The bottom line is... headphones are tools. Like any tool, there's a fairly well-defined set of tasks they are appropriate for. You can use a screwdriver to hammer a nail, but it won't be very effective. Headphones have equally well-defined uses, but none include their use as a mechanism upon which to base any sort of sonic decision... and that definitely includes mixing!

So save your pennies... get a second job... borrow yet again from your family... but DEFINITELY get a pair of studio monitors to work with. Your mixes will thank you.

Happy Recording...!

i tend to side with this fella when it comes to this particular argument...
Reply

#66
Quote:Proximity and isolation - in using headphones, both your sense of stereo imaging and frequency response change... imaging is exaggerated due to the isolation of one ear from the other, and frequency response gets skewed in the bass and mid-range areas due to the proximity of the drivers to the ear. So you can't be sure of the relative levels of frequencies in that area of the spectrum.


Unless you get lots of practice. Roll


Quote:"But wait.... so what if the response is different for each person, why is that any different from monitors?"
Good question - there is a huge difference.... the "personalized-response" effect is much more pronounced with headphones due to the proximity of the cones to a person's ears. With monitors, the room acts as a frequency-response leveler, giving a more uniform response to each person hearing them, but with headphones, it's virtually direct contact between ears and the cones, there's no room effect to "level-out" the response.

How vague can you be?

Is he saying that the room can minimise/reduce individual people's perception of the sound? How does that work then? The room actually affects your ear's response and how your brain perceives it, making it more like everyone else's? Baffled Hahaha What a load of bollocks! I'd be willing to listen to any argument that can actually describe exactly why that is.


And besides all that, I'm not exactly passing my headphones round to lots of people, am I. I put them on, I take them off later. I know how they correlate with the 'real world', and with other people's stuff. And that's all that matters here really. If I NEVER listened to my mixes on anything other than my headphones, I could be making shit mixes when I thought they were great - but then that applies equally to monitors.

This article doesn't really convince me at all to be honest.
[Image: protabl3.gif]
Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
Reply

#67
Also this:

Quote:Don't believe me? Try a simple test... Slap a pair of headphones on a decent-sounding synth/keyboard and find a patch you think sounds good through the phones. Now take the phones off and play that exact patch back through using monitors. 95% of the time you will hear a huge difference and the choice you made using headphones won't sound quite right played back on monitors, although it may have sounded excellent on the phones. Now imagine the same thing except with something as complex-sounding as a mix! As a matter of fact, try it - mix something using ONLY headphones, and then mix it again with monitors. The headphone mix will almost always be WAY off in terms of sonic balance.

IF YOU ARE USED TO MIXING ON MONITORS AND/OR HAVE INSUFFICIENT EXPERIENCE WITH YOUR CANS. Jeebus!
[Image: protabl3.gif]
Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
Reply

#68
I was gonna attempt to pull this apart myself but I thought i'd leave it to Macc as he's so much better at it. Hahaha

Of course headphones shouldn't be relied on but, as I see it, as long as you know how they compare to other things, you'll be alright. After comparing your mixes on loads of different systems, you begin to know your headphones inside out and learn their weaknesses/strengths in certain areas so you naturally can compensate for that when mixing because you know how it'll probably sound in the real world.
[Insert signature here]
Reply

#69
he hasn;t even bothered mentioning the fact that monitors will sound shit if they;re not set up correctly in a room free from acoustical aberrations.

Surely he's coming from the point of view of the dedicated studio head who can place speakers where they sound best and treat the room properly too. Which makes his point a little tenuous to say the least.......
bare
Reply

#70
since i know macc mixes most of his shit down on relatively cheap cans, i can confidently say that the proof is in the pudding there.

whether you like the music or not is beside this point,... his mixdowns are tight, and sound good on almost every system i play them on. same goes for AO and sileni.....they're usually consistently even and sound good on most playbacks i've tested them on.

playback A8V on anything......it'll sound pretty consistently good.



i think this whole headphone monitor issue is highly subjective like most things in this game, and it ends up coming back to the timeless statement : 'if it sounds good, it is good'.


we talk about all this concrete science shit, which is all well and good......the problem occurs when you throw a humans interpretation of the information into the mix and it all goes out the windown in the name of relativism.

nooch. Boobies
Reply

#71
dodz Wrote:pudding

Homerdrool
[Image: protabl3.gif]
Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
Reply

#72
Spank
Reply

#73
yo people, steady steady. I know that Bob and others get great results using cans to mix on.

Come on give me a break with all the proof in the p***ing (censored to prevent unnecessary excitement Hahaha) its not like I dont know that...

The question is, would these mixes be better (its relative) if mixed on decent monitors in a well balanced room. Id have to say yes in answer to that.

One question to the cans creux eg Macc - do you never use a hifi, car stereo, pc speakers, or any other playback device as a sanity check when mixing? All of these I see as useful reference tools, whether mixing on cans or monitors.
Reply

#74
Macc Wrote:Also this:

Quote:Don't believe me? Try a simple test... Slap a pair of headphones on a decent-sounding synth/keyboard and find a patch you think sounds good through the phones. Now take the phones off and play that exact patch back through using monitors. 95% of the time you will hear a huge difference and the choice you made using headphones won't sound quite right played back on monitors, although it may have sounded excellent on the phones. Now imagine the same thing except with something as complex-sounding as a mix! As a matter of fact, try it - mix something using ONLY headphones, and then mix it again with monitors. The headphone mix will almost always be WAY off in terms of sonic balance.

IF YOU ARE USED TO MIXING ON MONITORS AND/OR HAVE INSUFFICIENT EXPERIENCE WITH YOUR CANS. Jeebus!

just to play devils advocate, i do agree that theres bigger variety in sound with cans than there is with monitors.

if we flip the logic, if you mix through cans and it translates to sounding great on monitors, then it wont be sounding the same (ie it will sound worse?) through cans. So you must learn to mix with it sounding 'different' to what it really actually sounds like when played through a neutral system....what happens when you do mix on monitors then? How quickly can one adjust if you never usually mix on monitors?


Im using cans purely as a reference tool, along with car stereo, cheap hifi etc. Though I have done solid mixes while on the road (that last d&b tune I posted a couple of weeks back was composed (and inherently mixed through composition) entirely on cans), but most of the time the mixes have been improved when bringing them to the full studio. However I cant attribute that entirely to monitors since when in the main studio I also use a console and an array of outboard.


Sooooooooo

let me pose a question.

If its just a case of getting used to whatever you are using, cans, hi-fi speakers, a boombox, a club PA, whatever it may be.....then what is the point of neutral studio monitors?

Why do we and pretty much anyone you ask in the know tell you that you should mix on neutral monitors, and to ditch the crappy hifi speakers or whatever ?

Why do monitor companies exist even? Is it all a big con ? Has everyone been duped ?

According to the agruments presented against that article then yes we have all been duped (apart from macc who still has his cans Mrgreen )
Reply

#75
ps... Macc

[Image: 891736736444ed0eade0ed.gif]
Reply




Forum software by © MyBB Theme © iAndrew 2016