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Loudness Wars/RMS/Sound grumble

#51
Macc Wrote:Pre/post mastering? Smile

pre, i pretty much wanted to have some room for the mastering rather than trust my setup and make it loud as fuck Hahaha
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#52
what was the average peak level, roughly? Smile -1, -2 or summink like that?

that should be a pretty fat master man Yes
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#53
not got access to it at the mo but yeh about -2db Grin
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#54
i just checked that muse thing WTF !!! man thats comical, even dillinja himself would not go that mad Lol
that mastering engineer must be one deaf cunt by now
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#55
Slothrop Wrote:Peaks Maximum:
RMS Maximum:
RMS Average:

Can someone explain these 3 terms for me please? Cool
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#56
mixed down my latest track after going back over the mix and reading some of maccs tips on other threads... -12rms after a bit of L1 treatment (db reduction would have hit 3 at most) and i thought that was a good loud level. then compared it to some other tracks (it was for a remix comp) and they would have all been -10 or less.
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#57
@ mabus: be aware that true loudness comes from a good mix. you can slam that beartch with l1 all day, but you're only fucking your mix up. yeah, it is getting louder, but listen to the state of it!!! all mushy and shit, no punch...

when using l1 etc, always always always bring both the threshold and the ceiling knobs down together (use the little jobby in the middle). this way the perceived loudness remains the same, and rather than thinking 'itz loud so it muss be gud', you can listen to what the l1 is actually doing. once you're sure you want that shit on your tune, then raise the ceiling to -.2 or whatever to mix down.


as a side note, true 'increased power' or loudness comes more from compression rather than limiting.

the reason? think of the relative levels of two instants of a normalised signal. one is a little bit above minus infinity, one at -6db.

if you do some limiting, the two points levels remain the same 'distance' apart on the vertical scale, albeit further up.

if you do compression - generally a more gradual process (say you're using a soft knee) - then the two points are closer together, vertically speaking, because the compression acts more softly.


@ shiva:

peaks maximum: the value of the furthest point from -infinity of the signal being looked at. in other words, the biggest peak, either above or below minus infinity.



rms means root mean square. which means get an instantaneous value, square it, get another, square it, third, square it etc, add them all up, divide by the number of values you took, then square root it. it's a bit like your your standard arithmetic mean/average. in audio, it provides a fairly useful way of assessing the overall power - or perceived loudness - of a signal.

so;

rms maximum: the maximum rms power.


rms average: the average rms power, which is the best representation of overall perceived loudness.


read this Xyxthumbs

don't worry too much about the maths, and keep in mind that the waveform you are concerned with is not a square, but a song Smile .
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#58
macc Wrote:@ shiva:

peaks maximum: the value of the furthest point from -infinity of the signal being looked at. in other words, the biggest peak, either above or below minus infinity.



rms means root mean square. which means get an instantaneous value, square it, get another, square it, third, square it etc, add them all up, divide by the number of values you took, then square root it. it's a bit like your your standard arithmetic mean/average. in audio, it provides a fairly useful way of assessing the overall power - or perceived loudness - of a signal.

so;

rms maximum: the maximum rms power.


rms average: the average rms power, which is the best representation of overall perceived loudness.


read this Xyxthumbs

don't worry too much about the maths, and keep in mind that the waveform you are concerned with is not a square, but a song Smile .

nice one bro!! Xyxthumbs
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#59
When this thread dies down a bit I am going to move it to the tutorial forum Smile

Some good advice here Teef
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#60
I've found that most Sound Systems/Radio Stations/Etc... have limiters built-in anyway (to protect the speakers more than anything) so anything i've played that has been left completely unmastered just needs a gain boost to sound as loud as it will be getting compressed there and then.

Actually, I've learned that, the unmastered stuff sounds better because the compressed-to-fuck stuff is getting limited AGAIN after being limited loads by the original producer in the first place.

Radio compressors work in multi-band ways (99.9% of the time) and can make the track sound phatter if it's un-limited as it has more dynamics to work with so i'd say that it's better to just leave the dynamics there.

I think the big illusion today is that Limiting will make your tune sound phatter - In my opinion, a big fucking SLAP in your face sounds phatter than a constant barage of power - if all your tune was crushed to fuck, it would NOT be phat because you'd have nothing in there that was quieter to compare the phatness to. Keep the dynamics in there!
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#61
Speaks the geezer who used to swear by digital clipping Hahaha Teef

Quote:I've found that most Sound Systems/Radio Stations/Etc... have limiters built-in anyway (to protect the speakers more than anything) so anything i've played that has been left completely unmastered just needs a gain boost to sound as loud as it will be getting compressed there and then.

Actually, I've learned that, the unmastered stuff sounds better because the compressed-to-fuck stuff is getting limited AGAIN after being limited loads by the original producer in the first place.

Better in terms of sound quality, yes, I generally agree Smile I won't get into the specifics of the quality of the compression being applied though (which very often in clubs is a Behringer as opposed to your ultra-expensive cracked SSL comp... You get my point) Wink

However better to Average Joe often means LOUDER. The best balance is somewhere in between. If you know for a fact that something's going to be played out then not doing quite so much to your master usually helps - but then the specifics of the club, mixer, DJ (ie how much they turn the bass up usually) and so on mean it is still a guessing game of sorts.

Just getting things to sound as good (read: close to the clean mix) as possible is the best option IMO... Not too much heavy-handed mastering, but not relying on a hyperactive DJ going through some battered club mixer and a Behringer... Grin

Quote:Radio compressors work in multi-band ways (99.9% of the time) and can make the track sound phatter if it's un-limited as it has more dynamics to work with so i'd say that it's better to just leave the dynamics there.

That's quite vague to be honest Smile Phatness is in the eye of the beholder Teef 'Having more dynamics to work with' = lower RMS power = not as phat (to lots of people).

Most radio stations use that TC unit (Finaliser is it? I forget - 3 band limiter anyway) as well as multiband and straight up fullband compression in my experience, fwiw. Smile

Quote:I think the big illusion today is that Limiting will make your tune sound phatter - In my opinion, a big fucking SLAP in your face sounds phatter than a constant barage of power - if all your tune was crushed to fuck, it would NOT be phat because you'd have nothing in there that was quieter to compare the phatness to. Keep the dynamics in there!

That's a different issue Icon_exclaim Wink


It is true that beyond a certain point, limiting starts to work against the increase of perceived volume though Smile


To pick up on this (sorry);

Quote:it would NOT be phat because you'd have nothing in there that was quieter to compare the phatness to

In a mix, you have other tunes (the ones before and after) to compare to - and Avg Joe only cares that the next bassline is bigger than this one, and so on and so on. Watch it on a dancefloor - if the new tune has less power to it, (some) people stop dancing. A sad but true fact - seen it enough times!
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#62
Macc Wrote:Watch it on a dancefloor - if the new tune has less power to it, (some) people stop dancing. A sad but true fact - seen it enough times!

A good DJ should be able to compensate for this...
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#63
Been trying to find some software to measure average rms Icon_sad I'm at work and it needs to be some freeware. Any suggestions?

Also one should consider, that average RMS naturally should always be a bit lower on tunes with long intro/outro/silent parts...
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#64
cycom Wrote:Been trying to find some software to measure average rms Icon_sad I'm at work and it needs to be some freeware. Any suggestions?

http://www.freewaretomeasureaveragermswh...atwork.com
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#65
Roll

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#66
Shiva Wrote:A good DJ should be able to compensate for this...

It's not always that easy. I've done it many a time, found a tune is as loud but the average volume is lower, less kick, less impact.
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#67
cycom Wrote:Been trying to find some software to measure average rms Icon_sad I'm at work and it needs to be some freeware. Any suggestions?

Also one should consider, that average RMS naturally should always be a bit lower on tunes with long intro/outro/silent parts...

search for rms buddy
Lyrical theme(s): War, Freedom, Glory, Honor, Heavy Metal
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#68
@ cycom - Hahaha who tf is that? Hahaha
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#69
howard stevenson, if my eyes serve me right.
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#70
WiLSHY Wrote:
Shiva Wrote:A good DJ should be able to compensate for this...

It's not always that easy. I've done it many a time, found a tune is as loud but the average volume is lower, less kick, less impact.

True.... but gain and eq can go along way, plus starting the "louder" tunes at lower gain helps... as you know Cool
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#71
the elemental audio metering plugs are the best. IMO.
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#72
macc Wrote:@ cycom - Hahaha who tf is that? Hahaha

wtf do i know? Hahaha

i just thought he had the appropriate look to your helpful url on his lovely face Lol

(ah wait, i think i did a search for "scumbag"... Teef)

flx Wrote:search for rms buddy

cheers mate, i did and found some vst plugins, but i still needed a free vst host, which is able to process wav files Icon_sad

i think i'll just wait until i get home Xyxthumbs
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#73
dodz Wrote:the elemental audio metering plugs are the best. IMO.

installed them, but the program always collapsed on startup Mad

EDIT: Oops I meant another similar sounding one, but a demo seemingly can't be downloaded without giving your email away *shudder*
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#74
http://www.austin360.com/music/content/m...cover.html

read this ^^^^^

Yes Yes Yes
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#75
macc Wrote:http://www.austin360.com/music/content/music/stories/xl/2006/09/28cover.html

read this ^^^^^

Yes Yes Yes

great post ... do as the man says Xyxthumbs
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