and so there were seven.
#26

droid Wrote:or do i have to dl seperately?

separately

there are three mixes in the endo file: asc, dj void and tornado
i.e. the ones that don't have a separate download link

the others are 15 minutes of fame mixes i think

droid Wrote:simply that its presentation is counter productive imo.

no doubt it'll be refined for further issues
particularly if people make actual suggestions Wave
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#27

droid Wrote:im not saying its a bad thing, simply that its presentation is counter productive imo. plus things taken out of context/chinese whispers eg: the wobbly choral mix is presented as 3 minute clip of a 'bulgarian chorus mix'...

it's not error-free and its presentation may be a bit confusing/overwhelming at first. Smile

but respect where respect is due and besides this whole thing obviously having been a massive amount of work, i'm enjoying the whole package very much. Xyxthumbs

obviously you have to dig a little deeper in the zip archive, but user-friendliness is not necessarily the key feature of such a collection. i'm sure there is plenty of room for enhancements, but this has never been denied by any of the participants. Smile

to me in these days of optimised user experience and customer relation management blabla, it's kinda refreshing to see something a bit unwiedly, which nonetheless has a lot to offer :d
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#28

Hahaha Ok, heres some suggestions.

Simplify the presentation. Give people a link with a clear explanation of what theyre downloading along with the files size at the top of each 'article' along with a single clear paragraph describing said download.

Remove superfluous text such as extended discussions of the motivations of the contributors. Set up a website with more information instead and include a link or an excerpt.

Again this is all IMO, but I think in general most casual downloaders would appreciate more clarity and less words - theres a lot of competition for downloads out there...
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#29

cycom Wrote:
droid Wrote:im not saying its a bad thing, simply that its presentation is counter productive imo. plus things taken out of context/chinese whispers eg: the wobbly choral mix is presented as 3 minute clip of a 'bulgarian chorus mix'...

it's not error-free and its presentation may be a bit confusing/overwhelming at first. Smile

but respect where respect is due and besides this whole thing obviously having been a massive amount of work, i'm enjoying the whole package very much. Xyxthumbs

obviously you have to dig a little deeper in the zip archive, but user-friendliness is not necessarily the key feature of such a collection. i'm sure there is plenty of room for enhancements, but this has never been denied by any of the participants. Smile

to me in these days of optimised user experience and customer relation management blabla, it's kinda refreshing to see something a bit unwiedly, which nonetheless has a lot to offer :d

theres a reason for 'user-friendliness'. lack of time. most people dont have the time or the patience for this kind of presentation.

everyone wants their work to reach the widest audience possible, so whay not simplfy? something can still be 'unwieldy' in content, but it doesnt have to be presented that way. Chin
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#30

droid Wrote:Hahaha Ok, heres some suggestions.

Simplify the presentation. Give people a link with a clear explanation of what theyre downloading along with the files size at the top of each 'article' along with a single clear paragraph describing said download.

Remove superfluous text such as extended discussions of the motivations of the contributors. Set up a website with more information instead and include a link or an excerpt.

Again this is all IMO, but I think in general most casual downloaders would appreciate more clarity and less words - theres a lot of competition for downloads out there...

Totally agree. As for the 'unwieldly is refreshing' argument... c'mon seriously?

Stacks
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#31

is there a certain file were supposed to start with?
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#32

ok. first off, many thanks for anyone who has downloaded this already. it's much appreciated. Smile

to droid, for what statto (or i) haven't rectified, i'll try and break this up:

agreements

droid Wrote:everyone wants their work to reach the widest audience possible, so why not simplify? something can still be 'unwieldy' in content, but it doesnt have to be presented that way.

absolutely. but it is, whether you believe me or not very simplified. the size of the post convolutes the point, yes, as does the ambiguous download links. but if users were to read 80% of the text they would get the gist. and i am to explain more of the concepts as time goes on. i have had to distill this multiple times. i didn't have time for more of them. some people have had to wait far too long for me to get this out.

Quote:if people like it they'll (hopefully) come back and read all the associated information... Xyxthumbs

sure. and that is why i tried to break it up. and if they read the before mixes section, they would possibly do that. you're asking me if i'm interviewing myself. sorry.

Quote:it's always a shame to place unnecessary barriers between your work and the audience.

yes. but these barriers could be broken down,

statto Wrote:particularly if people make actual suggestions

...and in the lead up process to tdd 2. this i did not expect greatly, i kept much of it bottled up. nevertheless i laid the foundations with tdd 1, which was incredibly premature. the proactivity based feedback was very small. to be expected, but if i have to outline a lack of real guidelines or movement then i will here. moving on...
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#33

disagreements

droid Wrote:in that massively confusing first post?

Quote:but the first rule is always to be as clear about whats on offer for download, and to make the download link as obvious as possible.

I could have easily let this follow the first rule. But if I did that, there would be a mass confusion about what all the codes and systems were about. As stated, I will explain as it goes on, and then people can get involved if they like. You could argue more inside, less outside, but again, there is a lot to explain, and I couldn't reduce the size time permitting.

Quote:Is it? I thought it was 4 or 5 mixes, a PDF with some undetermined content and some clips of some unspecified tracks... this is the problem IMO - what the hell is it???... The only reason I downloaded it was to try and figure out what it actually is.

And big props to you. This was explained in the top of page notes. The number of PDFs next to downloads. The theme no preconceptions. Wasn't it clear enough?

Also, you know I agree on the downloads being clear (to a point). If you're speaking for those who don't scan, and download as regularly as you, then great. But for someone who as I know is downloading music every day, I would have thought the pitches would have been discernable.

Quote:From what i can tell - its basically a selection of stuff that he's found on the internet over the last few months.

So why all the hyperbole?

It would be wrong for me to say the concepts diverge greatly from collated data, but in short you obviously haven't even looked at what is written. That is, contextually.

If you want a relevant example to you, there was a thread recently on dnbsets.de. You voiced annoyance that liner notes would be bypassed by direct downloads.

If you look at nearly all of these 140+ clips, you will find that isn't the case. Peep the "lyrics" cache for each track clip. These are utilised to store liner notes. But not only that. They store tenuous links related to, as mentioned in the first post: culture, and subjects relating to the etymology, sleep, insomnia, science and nature themes.

There are possibilities of skilled writers, poets, or universally speaking anyone who feels they'd like to support in a less braindead manner, to get in on the act. This can be crossed into the forum promotion model with ease. Bumps, sporadic or random when ideas are finished.

All of this information, and much more is covered in the "Diagnosiness" PDF. I make no bones about underdeveloped ideas, but I believe in them a lot. If people care, they can create. And this can go on for years.


Quote:So is your mix somewhere in this 562mb folder? or do i have to DL seperately?

524mb, download link underneath notes and tracklist.


Quote:Plus things taken out of context/chinese whispers eg: the Wobbly choral mix is presented as 3 minute clip of a 'bulgarian chorus mix'...

It's labelled as an excerpt. It's coded with the mixes section digits. It's ID tag tells of this. Its context a stepping stone of something I had in mind for the future.

Quote:Ok, heres some suggestions.

The simplifying of presentation would require more time and feedback. Already covered, all is done, I have plans for later.

I never wished to remove the motivations and thanks, besides length of both combined. That way humanity and background, for a grass roots project (of which grass roots is inherently related to humanity) is lost by a mechanised trimming down of data. If you're pushing music no-one knows about, and a theme of no preconceptions, to me that's the nail in the coffin, not the antidote.

In regards to websites, for one, I'm a technical idiot. Anyone who knows or foresees anything of TDD will have noticed this. For two, I'd never wish to add to the fractured menagerie of SC resources when I could rather bring them together under one roof. A website would be very useful for this, but not my own. Subvert Central, is right here.

I also don't value my opinion singular.

I appreciate your judgement on less words, and you are understandably correct about the casual downloader; I don't doubt that. But casual downloaders will be linked to the uncasual by what I am to do on forums, and what plans I have made. Bloggers, writers, sites, if they give a damn, will report on it. If no-one cares, I haven't done a good enough job.

That's the way I see it, and I stand by that.

Quote:theres a lot of competition for downloads out there...

As above.

Quote:Theres a reason for 'user-friendliness'. Lack of time. Most people dont have the time or the patience for this kind of presentation.

The most are those who aren't featured. The featured are most of those I wish to network ideas with. The semi-most are those who I can connect by the themes, general media angles and anything else eclectic. And that most is much bigger than any initial interpretation will observe.
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#34

resolutions

droid Wrote:again, im not trying to stir things up, i just hate to see all this effort put in only to be wasted by poor presentation.

no stir ups here, i wholeheartedly welcome your scepticism. any more of the same would be wonderful. Xyxthumbs Yes
just give it a bit of time, that's all i ask.

metalx Wrote:is there a certain file were supposed to start with?

check out "diagnosiness" for the full program Wink Smile
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#35

Falcon

mick rules!
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#36

once you know where to begin it all falls into place. great reading so far mutley cheers.


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#37

this is some outstanding work from the man named muttley
impressive lil mix festival you got going Grin

very suprised to be mentioned by the way
thank you for the appreciation

downloading
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#38

Muttley Wrote:
droid Wrote:So is your mix somewhere in this 562mb folder? or do i have to DL seperately?

524mb, download link underneath notes and tracklist.

524 to download
562 unzipped Wink
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#39

ok. just a couple of things in the spirit of positive feedback...

Quote:i could have easily let this follow the first rule. but if i did that, there would be a mass confusion about what all the codes and systems were about. as stated, i will explain as it goes on, and then people can get involved if they like. you could argue more inside, less outside, but again, there is a lot to explain, and i couldn't reduce the size time permitting.

whay have such a convuluted code and system? get rid of it and save yourself time. also, i dont understand how it takes more time to write less text. Baffled

Quote:and big props to you. this was explained in the top of page notes. the number of pdfs next to downloads. the theme no preconceptions. wasn't it clear enough?
also, you know i agree on the downloads being clear (to a point). if you're speaking for those who don't scan, and download as regularly as you, then great. but for someone who as i know is downloading music every day, i would have thought the pitches would have been discernable.

no, imo it wasnt clear.

also, i download over a gb of music a day - soundclashes, mp3 sites, mixes from forums etc... and as someone who dls music every day, i find the presantation offputting and time consuming. its far too easy to just go, 'i cant be bothered - next!'

Quote:it would be wrong for me to say the concepts diverge greatly from collated data, but in short you obviously haven't even looked at what is written. that is, contextually.

i have looked at it, and it didnt make much sense after one read. how long should it have to take for a user to figure out what it is he/she is supposed to be downloading?

just because its clear to you, dont mean its clear to others.

Quote:if you want a relevant example to you, there was a thread recently on dnbsets.de. you voiced annoyance that liner notes would be bypassed by direct downloads.


i have a policy of no direct downloads - i dont like leeching. i prefer it if people come to the site to download - desite the fact that i also put loads of info in the id3 tags. theres various reasons for this which i dont want to go into here.

Quote:all of this information, and much more is covered in the "diagnosiness"


aha! so thats the one i should read then! it should be called readme first.pdf or something then...

Quote:it's labelled as an excerpt. it's coded with the mixes section digits. it's id tag tells of this. its context a stepping stone of something i had in mind for the future.

cool - just pointing out that its not a 'bulgarian choir mix' at all. its a 'choral mix'. theres only a couple of bulgarian tunes on there.

Quote:the simplifying of presentation would require more time and feedback. already covered, all is done, i have plans for later.
i never wished to remove the motivations and thanks, besides length of both combined. that way humanity and background, for a grass roots project (of which grass roots is inherently related to humanity) is lost by a mechanised trimming down of data. if you're pushing music no-one knows about, and a theme of no preconceptions, to me that's the nail in the coffin, not the antidote.
in regards to websites, for one, i'm a technical idiot. anyone who knows or foresees anything of tdd will have noticed this. for two, i'd never wish to add to the fractured menagerie of sc resources when i could rather bring them together under one roof. a website would be very useful for this, but not my own. subvert central, is right here.
i also don't value my opinion singular.
i appreciate your judgement on less words, and you are understandably correct about the casual downloader; i don't doubt that. but casual downloaders will be linked to the uncasual by what i am to do on forums, and what plans i have made. bloggers, writers, sites, if they give a damn, will report on it. if no-one cares, i haven't done a good enough job.
that's the way i see it, and i stand by that.

as i said - im not a casual dler, and i think theres alot of people out there who dl a lot and as a result might have little patience for extended monologues. i know this from my own experience at weareie, which is why i format the stuff over there in a certain way.

again, im not sure how writing less could take more time. the fact that multiple readers here (incuding myself) have had trouble finding the links and figuring this out surely attests to the idea that things could do with a bit of trimming down? Chin

Quote:the most are those who aren't featured. the featured are most of those i wish to network ideas with. the semi-most are those who i can connect by the themes, general media angles and anything else eclectic. and that most is much bigger than any initial interpretation will observe.

im not really sure what youre trying to say here...

again - sorry if im coming across as wholey negative. i can see that a lot of work and love has gone into this stuff and im not trying to discourage you - just simplify your presentation... im sure you'll get more downloads that way.
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#40

droid Wrote:i have a policy of no direct downloads - i dont like leeching. i prefer it if people come to the site to download - desite the fact that i also put loads of info in the id3 tags. theres various reasons for this which i dont want to go into here.

i understand Xyxthumbs

Quote:cool - just pointing out that its not a 'bulgarian choir mix' at all. its a 'choral mix'. theres only a couple of bulgarian tunes on there.

thanks for alerting me. i will keep this in mind for when corrections arise.

droid Wrote:whay have such a convuluted code and system? get rid of it and save yourself time.

edit: later.

Quote:also, i dont understand how it takes more time to write less text. Baffled

perhaps i'm an oddball but that's how my brain outputs. i always wish to reach ultimate understanding. kind of a paradox at times because all the meanings get shoved together and can confuse. it all relates back to the etymology side, and i'm going to make a post for this in a bit. i don't want to write too much here as i have the doa thread to catch up with what i wish to instill, and i'd rather retain some ambiguity in the nature of it.

stacks Wrote:totally agree. as for the 'unwieldly is refreshing' argument... c'mon seriously?

i will join this up, both points to meet. stacks, if you're going to download it, please read "diagnosiness" as well. i believe design is your forte, instantaneous impact a bias - this is different.


here's why.


drum&bass pr is generally built on novelty. novelty interchangable with what droid brings up. it's not the press that really matters, it's the links. pr is the icing.
in "diagnosiness", and as briefly touched on before, there's an idiosyncracy system based on the themes. because of its scope, the longevity is infininte. that also means promotion originality is infinite.

now back to me being on one side of the bridge. i am fully aware my approach is unorthodox. but my philosophy isn't.

i feel heartless browsing and picking unknown sites, no key to the door.

with tdd 2, the multifaceted community aspect of this system means any user can join in. and they can join in on a purely communal level. it's not complex, but it is.

as time goes on i extract track clips or info, insert it into the threads, and everything has an explanation, and a "clipticism".

this instills a healthy support trail, an incentive for anyone who hates spam to fill the thread with unpredicted info, co-operation to spark new ideas, exposure for the contributing sources, and the balance of the weighty original post to be readdressed by those who didn't read it before; as there is much more support, without the spam.


hence


muttley Wrote:the most are those who aren't featured. the featured are most of those i wish to network ideas with. the semi-most are those who i can connect by the themes, general media angles and anything else eclectic. and that most is much bigger than any initial interpretation will observe.


see above.

if i have to sacrifice x number of downloads in the beginning to let this build as i want it to, i bloody will because i'd rather be safe in the knowledge i contributed something that was of purely long term benefit to others, unique in my own small minded outlook.

Quote:i wouldn't have spent four months doing editorial if i didn't believe in what i was pushing.


droid Wrote:i know this from my own experience at weareie, which is why i format the stuff over there in a certain way.

btw, pms soon mister Wave
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#41

Muttley Wrote:I will join this up, both points to meet. Stacks, if you're going to download it, please read "Diagnosiness" as well. I believe design is your forte, instantaneous impact a bias - this is different.

honest to god... I just spent about 3 minutes searching the initial post for this 'diagnosiness' thing and couldn't find it. I dunno, maybe it's because I have a splitting headache right now, but it wasn't obvious where to find it... or even what 'it' is.

To reiterate what droid has said, please understand that all criticism is meant constructively.

Stacks
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#42

stacks Wrote:
muttley Wrote:i will join this up, both points to meet. stacks, if you're going to download it, please read "diagnosiness" as well. i believe design is your forte, instantaneous impact a bias - this is different.

honest to god... i just spent about 3 minutes searching the initial post for this 'diagnosiness' thing and couldn't find it. i dunno, maybe it's because i have a splitting headache right now, but it wasn't obvious where to find it... or even what 'it' is.

it's in the "endo" edition. the "yes?" hyperlink near the bottom leads to it. safetyboy has quoted it down the page.

Quote:to reiterate what droid has said, please understand that all criticism is meant constructively.

and all my ramblings are meant innocently. sorry for any confusion or possibly patronising tone, it is not meant. i love this kind of feedback, this is just the way i explain Kisskiss

and that headache is more important to heal right now Yes Wave
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#43

i just wanna say, out of the fair few (prob hundreds now) comments ive had about anything ive ever done, droid was the only one who has ever slated anything ive ever done (my first ambient mix).

not that he/you was/were wrong, (not talking behind your back droid, but to and about you) but , imo, like this situation, he/you was/were putting suggestions and things about how he/you would have done it. ie my mixing was crap (it was), your presentation could be better ... just because he/you think it could have been better.

not slagging him/you off at all droid.

just saying mick, sometimes, you have to keep going and forget the negative criticisms, because sometimes they miss the point.

i'm sure im going to get multiple quoted in one post in response to this, but honestly this wasn't intended as a droid slag, he/you just sometimes come across as thinking that if people don't do things 'your' way, they are wrong. like tdd2, my mix was flawed. but it doesn't mean it wasn't enjoyable, or understood by others. generally, if something is completely crap you know about it, there are millions of examples on the internet.

one of the prices of being more intelligent/whatever than the norm i suppose.

all in good spirits, as everything here is/should be Kisskiss

this is going to sound like an 'im bitter cus droid slagged my mix years agao ' rant, but it really isnt. i just find it really weird that someone who is so positive and into music and awareness of politics and the world (eg blogariddims for one, hosting sc podcasts another) can also be kinda negative about what is a (possibly flawed but) hugely massive effort on other peoples behalf sometimes.

btw droid, also when i was a noob here you promised to give me a list of books to read when i was 'its all crap the world is so fucked, doom and gloom', if you could still pass them on.Xyxthumbs

hope this comes across in the spirit in which it was intended.

peace to all.
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#44

paradigm x Wrote:i just wanna say, out of the fair few (prob hundreds now) comments ive had about anything ive ever done, droid was the only one who has ever slated anything ive ever done (my first ambient mix).

btw droid, also when i was a noob here you promised to give me a list of books to read when i was 'its all crap the world is so fucked, doom and gloom', if you could still pass them on.Xyxthumbs

hope this comes across in the spirit in which it was intended.

peace to all.

Hahaha youre going to have to remind me about all of this...

perhaps i should spend more time practising my 'its all good's'? Chin
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#45

No i never said 'its all good'. Just constructive criticism and highlighting weaknesses are sometimes different.

I dont wanna fight at all, i just read all this, Ive just come back from a funeral and im drunk im im in a weird mood, absolutely no offence intended.

Its just sometimes weird when you put something up for people to enjoy and something you never even thought of or considered is slated, something which wasnt anything to do with what youre trying to do. Just that i empathise with muttley is all.

Its all good Teef

Kisskiss

PS pls give me a couple of books to read, general 'alternative politics' for free party types.
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#46

Paradigm X Wrote:Its just sometimes weird when you put something up for people to enjoy and something you never even thought of or considered is slated, something which wasnt anything to do with what youre trying to do. Just that i empathise with muttley is all.

He's going to go quiet now. Just watch. Wink

Quote:Its all good Teef

Kisskiss

PS pls give me a couple of books to read, general 'alternative politics' for free party types.

Lol
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#47

droid Wrote:
paradigm x Wrote:i just wanna say, out of the fair few (prob hundreds now) comments ive had about anything ive ever done, droid was the only one who has ever slated anything ive ever done (my first ambient mix).

btw droid, also when i was a noob here you promised to give me a list of books to read when i was 'its all crap the world is so fucked, doom and gloom', if you could still pass them on.Xyxthumbs

hope this comes across in the spirit in which it was intended.

peace to all.

Hahaha youre going to have to remind me about all of this...

perhaps i should spend more time practising my 'its all good's'? Chin

http://www.subvertcentral.com/forum/view...ca&t=25502
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#48

Paradigm X Wrote:IMO, like this situation, he/you was/were putting suggestions and things about how HE/YOU would have done it. ie my mixing was crap (it was), your presentation could be better ... just because HE/YOU think it could have been better.

Paradigm X Wrote:Its just sometimes weird when you put something up for people to enjoy and something you never even thought of or considered is slated, something which wasnt anything to do with what youre trying to do. Just that i empathise with muttley is all.

Muttley Wrote:He's going to go quiet now. Just watch. wink

Honestly fellas, Im a bit surprised at his. I think its pretty obvious to anyone who reads weareie or any of the linkage type posts I put up here, that I have no problem at all with diversity of approach. In fact I encourage it!

Id also like to point out that I didnt 'slate' your mix, I simply expressed my disappointment that it wasnt , well, mixed.... A point of view that i think I explained reasonably clearly.

Sorry if I discouraged you. Hugs

Quote:No i never said 'its all good'. Just constructive criticism and highlighting weaknesses are sometimes different.

Baffled This is where i get confused. 'Unconstructive' criticism is 'this is shit' with no explanation as to why. I thnk its fair to say that this isnt the type of criticism I normally give. Take this thread for an example. Many Subverts (including yourself) (PDX) have agreed that there is a problem with presentation here - so how do you reconcile that with your accusation that Im simply criticisng because things arent being done the way 'I' would have done it'?

I think the real issue here is that I made any kind of criticism at all... about whether I (or anyone) has the 'right' to criticise. The 'its all good' attitude.

Quote:I just wanna say, out of the fair few (prob hundreds now) comments ive had about anything ive ever done, droid was the only one who has ever slated anything ive ever done (my first ambient mix).

And from your mix thread:

Paradigm X Wrote:just a bit surprised that people actually criticised

Personally I relish thoughtful criticism of the stuff I put out. A hundred big ups (though nice and higly appreciated Smile ) arent worth one decent critique IMO. Sure its annoying, but good criticism, though hard to swallow sometimes actually helps an artist (or whoever) to refine their work. You may not agree, but I find a critic actually makes you think more about what it is youre actually trying to do - much more than an army of yes men...

Maybe this is cos Im ultra-critical of my own stuff, and most of the people I work with have very high standards as well. Also I may assume others are as thick (or metal Grin ) skinned as me and can take it on the chin when someone does make a valid criticism. So to both of you, sorry for any offense.

Id also like to point out (and this is gonna make a few people laugh), I generally follow the 'if you have nothing nice to say...' rule. i keep my mouth shut 99% of the time and let people get on with whatever it is there doing, regardless of whether or not I think its any good. Mainly to avoid the perrenial 'criticism' arguments that tend to spring up when feelings get hurt.

Quote:This is going to sound like an 'Im bitter cus droid slagged my mix years agao ' rant, but it really isnt. I just find it really weird that someone who is so positive and into music and awareness of politics and the world (eg blogariddims for one, hosting sc podcasts another) can also be kinda negative about what is a (possibly flawed but) hugely massive effort on other peoples behalf sometimes.

Sorry, but yeah it does a bit. Which is a bit disappointing as I thought we'd resolved this fairly amicably at the time and you semed to know where I was coming from by the end of the conversation (and vice versa). Icon_cry

I'll PM you a list of books. you should've reminded me, Im a busy robot. Grin
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#49

good criticism is good

Blue

don't be discouraged from giving it Kisskiss
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#50

hi droid

yeah we did resolve amicably, it just stands out in my mind as an unusual situation. i wasnt bitter, am not still, it was perfectly valid criticism. it was just to my mind a bit irrelevant, like saying 'great set but i didnt like the tshirt you had on.' i should have explained better...

it really wasnt aimed at a dig at you, it was just your response to this thread reminded me of the other time, and i felt like mentioning it.

more later at work now. i was thinking about it today, and since (honestly) you are so good at mixing etc, and presenting mixes and doing websites etc you think, oh its dead easy, why doesnt everyone do it ? when a lot of mortals struggle.

im sorry if anything i wrote came across as a dig, was just intended as an observation of your method of criticising, and how your intentions sometimes perhaps dont come across in the spirit you intended. critiquing the critic as it were .

as you say its much more useful than a solitary Xyxthumbs or Icon_yippee and particularly with my tunes, i like getting feedback and criticism. you get so stuck in a tune sometimes objectivity flies out the window, which is where forums likes this are invaluable. but i for one wouldnt say i didnt like a certain mix or ezine or whatever, just say nothing.

i dunno. trying to write what you mean on a forum sometimes just gets more and more convuluted the more you try to explain.

yeah sorry, i kept forgetting about the books, didnt mean to make it look like youd ignored me or anything, it was a long time ago now, thats not the case, it was just while i spoke last night i remembered, it popped in my head, and thought id mention it while i was writing. not had any dialogue with you in a long time. i havent had much chance to be on sc recently. i value your opinion a lot, which is why i got involved, and i know you know a lot oabout politics as well.

so apologies, didnt mean to make you look bad, or discourage you from making comments about anything, i sincerely hope you will continue. just crossed wires i think.

with your permission, and statto's maybe we can take out the discussiony bits out of this thread and only leave in comments relating to the tdd2 ? dunno up to mick as well i suppose. a good solid sc discussion going on here.

cheers man, and sorry for any offence i may have caused. thanks for taking the time to explain.

take care

ben pdx

Xyxthumbs
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