Anti-immigrant politics on the rise in Europe

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/10/18/s...t_and_anti

discuss!

wow, she went pretty far there.

It is hard to talk about this subject without getting referred to as a racist... Especially in France, and even more in Germany.

I say all this will end in violence.

wow, she went pretty far there.

She did.

It is hard to talk about this subject without getting reffered to as a racist... Especially in France, and even more in Germany.

Not so sure. Of course it's quite problematic through mass media, but I think it's something that needs addressing. Otherwise you leave the field to the right-wing extremists.

I say all this will end in violence.

[Statto]

And what I really am worried about is how the far right, what was twenty years ago the domain of the far right, is setting—even if they are a minority, they are setting the general agenda.

The typical rhetorical trick here is in two moves. First, you of course condemn the far right—"no place in our developed democracy." But then you add, "But they are addressing the real worries of the people," and so on and so on. So, in precisely—that’s the dirty sophistic trick—in order to prevent hatred outbursts, we have to control the situation.

quite so

Id like to hear SLAVOJ ŽIŽEK pronounce his own name.

And what I really am worried about is how the far right, what was twenty years ago the domain of the far right, is setting—even if they are a minority, they are setting the general agenda.

The typical rhetorical trick here is in two moves. First, you of course condemn the far right—"no place in our developed democracy." But then you add, "But they are addressing the real worries of the people," and so on and so on. So, in precisely—that’s the dirty sophistic trick—in order to prevent hatred outbursts, we have to control the situation.

quite so

yes, the decline of the left-wing parties (in the early years of 2000, copying typical conservative views and even doing the dirty work like unpopular cuts in the social systems, etc. (Tony Blair's new labour, Gerhard Schröder's Agenda 2010 and so on)) left us with neo-liberal economist parties and their "counterpart" ultra-conservative right-wing populists as the only alternatives - I think SZ got that right too.

Something not mentioned in that documentary is that the frustration with the current German government is so big, that the Greens were to represent almost 30% of the votes, if an election was to be held today. Considering the fact they had a mere 10-12% before, this is quite a leap.

What interests me is how it came to all this... okay, in Germany there was Thilo Sarrazin's book, but it sort of fell on "fertile ground".

Is it the threat of terrorist attacks that fuels people's fear of immigration from muslim countries? Is it because the whole Afghanistan invasion proved to be a failure?

yes, the decline of the left-wing parties (in the early years of 2000, copying typical conservative views and even doing the dirty work like unpopular cuts in the social systems, etc. (Tony Blair's new labour, Gerhard Schröder's Agenda 2010 and so on)) left us with neo-liberal economist parties and their "counterpart" ultra-conservative right-wing populists as the only alternatives - I think SZ got that right too.

Something not mentioned in that documentary is that the frustration with the current German government is so big, that the Greens were to represent almost 30% of the votes, if an election was to be held today. Considering the fact they had a mere 10-12% before, this is quite a leap.

What interests me is how it came to all this... okay, in Germany there was Thilo Sarrazin's book, but it sort of fell on "fertile ground".

Is it the threat of terrorist attacks that fuels people's fear of immigration from muslim countries? Is it because the whole Afghanistan invasion proved to be a failure?

It's because economies are fucked , people have less money and they think the solution to their problems is stopping immigration or blaming the immigrants that are already in the country for taking jobs they they could do , even though when there was more money about they wouldn't even consider doing these jobs (making food, cleaning, manual labor)
And governments come up with great solutions to integration by limiting peoples personal freedoms (ban the burka etc)

It's because economies are fucked , people have less money and they think the solution to their problems is stopping immigration or blaming the immigrants that are already in the country for taking jobs they they could do , even though when there was more money about they wouldn't even consider doing these jobs (making food, cleaning, manual labor)
And governments come up with great solutions to integration by limiting peoples personal freedoms (ban the burka etc)

I think that's what it used to be about. But economies aren't fucked. In fact this year the German economy will grow by 3.5%, for next year 4% are predicted. Of course, on the other hand, the poor are being bled white while the banks celebrate massive winnings. But throughtout Europe (except for France maybe) you can see that there's hardly any protest from the lower ranks of society. Yet there's this new tendency of intolerance towards what they call "parallel societies" and "integration-averse" people.

On a side note, what's specifically annoying in Germany is that the infrastructure for integration is really bad. People have to wait for months in order to get a place in a language course etc. - but all politicans are talking about is Immigrants which reject integration.

And what I really am worried about is how the far right, what was twenty years ago the domain of the far right, is setting—even if they are a minority, they are setting the general agenda.

The typical rhetorical trick here is in two moves. First, you of course condemn the far right—"no place in our developed democracy." But then you add, "But they are addressing the real worries of the people," and so on and so on. So, in precisely—that’s the dirty sophistic trick—in order to prevent hatred outbursts, we have to control the situation.

quite so

Indeed. They are genuine worries and worries which EU governments haven't really bothered to address within the last few years.

If there's no platform for sensible debate and you end up being misinterpreted and taken out of context each time you open your mouth then that's no good, is it. We purport to live in a society that allows freedom of speech but it does feel like quite the opposite sometimes.

We purport to live in a society that allows freedom of speech but it does feel like quite the opposite sometimes.

Fair enough. But what is it, you can't voice? I hear quite a lot of people saying: "you can't speak your mind", it's not "politically correct", etc.
I'd really love to hear those opinions and what these "unspeakable thoughts" are.

At least looking at Germany, I can't understand people who put the whole blame on cultural differences and the unwillingness of immigrants. Yet, that's the common denominator: it's *their* fault. Partly, what Angela Merkel was trying to express, (but went awfully wrong) is that the center of the problem is the implicitness. For decades it was taken for granted, that immigrants simply adopt our lifestyle. Well, some do, some don't. But to me the responsibility of an immigration country is to make offers of integration and take care that those actually meet the demand. Which is not what's happened here.

I find, that people who tend to complain about not 'being able' to say something for fear of being 'branded a racist' by the 'PC brigade' are usually bigoted cunts.

I think that's what it used to be about. But economies aren't fucked. In fact this year the German economy will grow by 3.5%, for next year 4% are predicted.

I think everywhere in Europe with the exception of Germany and possibly France is fucked , the reason you don't hear much from the lower ranks here in Ireland is because they are un-organised .

We purport to live in a society that allows freedom of speech but it does feel like quite the opposite sometimes.

There is no such thing as freedom of speech.

[Statto]

I find, that people who tend to complain about not 'being able' to say something for fear of being 'branded a racist' by the 'PC brigade' are usually bigoted cunts.

or when someone starts a sentence with "it may not be politically correct to say this, but..." you know they're about to come out with some absolute shite

[Statto]

And what I really am worried about is how the far right, what was twenty years ago the domain of the far right, is setting—even if they are a minority, they are setting the general agenda.

The typical rhetorical trick here is in two moves. First, you of course condemn the far right—"no place in our developed democracy." But then you add, "But they are addressing the real worries of the people," and so on and so on. So, in precisely—that’s the dirty sophistic trick—in order to prevent hatred outbursts, we have to control the situation.

Indeed. They are genuine worries and worries which EU governments haven't really bothered to address within the last few years.

But Zizek isn't saying that – he's saying that EU governments are using these "worries" to implement far right policies while at the same time claiming to oppose them.

[Statto]

We purport to live in a society that allows freedom of speech but it does feel like quite the opposite sometimes.

There is no such thing as freedom of speech.

Or:

it did not take me long to realise the truth of the adage that freedom of the press in Britain means freedom to print such of the proprietor's prejuduces as the advertisers don't object to.

I find, that people who tend to complain about not 'being able' to say something for fear of being 'branded a racist' by the 'PC brigade' are usually bigoted cunts.

...says Mr Open Minded

But Zizek isn't saying that – he's saying that EU governments are using these "worries" to implement far right policies while at the same time claiming to oppose them.

Ah, I misunderstood then.

...says Mr Open Minded

Oh, Ive heard it all Loris. Im open to any views, but I'm also happy to criticise views i disagree with.

You'll also struggle to find examples of me calling people 'racist' in my many years here. What is it you're worried about saying for fear of condemnation?

The whole thing is quite ridiculous, historically speaking. There is no such thing as ANY homogeneous racial/national/geo-political grouping of people on the face of the earth, especially in Europe. The idea that there are aggregate clumps of people who are associated with disparate languages and cultures who live in some sort of iconic boundary is absurd and politically naive. Ironically, 'history' has helped to create and entrench that myth.

This whole immigrant policy is a derivative of that fantasy. The issues described in this thread have always been a hot bed of discussion here in Hawaii.

It's because economies are fucked , people have less money and they think the solution to their problems is stopping immigration or blaming the immigrants that are already in the country for taking jobs they they could do ...

Then curtailing immigration would be the wrong thing to do, it wouldnt make 'economic' sense.

bollocks to borders. roam your planet.

what annoys me the most is, that some polititians draw the immigrant-card when they have no support for their politics. shameless bastards that simply dont care that they do mischief. thats what happens now in germany and the discussion is of course far away from constructive.

Merkel said that the multicultural approach utterly failed, but in fact we have a woman as a chancellor and a gay foreign minister which is multicultural, too.

I think its a discussion that is necessary, but please less hypocrite.

Cunts...

I find, that people who tend to complain about not 'being able' to say something for fear of being 'branded a racist' by the 'PC brigade' are usually bigoted cunts.

or when someone starts a sentence with "it may not be politically correct to say this, but..." you know they're about to come out with some absolute shite

Here lads, I'll say it: France faces a far too high immigration rate.

You gonna call me racist? I hope not.

Well believe me in France I would get it all!

Here lads, I'll say it: France faces a far too high immigration rate.

You gonna call me racist? I hope not.

It's not really a matter of racism is it? Could you elaborate why you think the immigration rate is too high?

I think a much neglected part of this debate is why rich countries can't afford immigration and where the money actually goes.

How can it be possible that banks are saved by means of making debts *without* consequences (i.e. regulation of the highly speculative stock market), while social insurance is cut back? Last year's crisis should've been a wake up call. Instead more (tax) money is pumped into a finance market cut loose, while politicians start to blame immigration and the alleged laziness of jobless people for the state's deficit.