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messiaen anyone? olivier

Olivier Messiaen anyone?

#26
pacific Wrote:Hi,
I just subbed, but I have been watching this board for a long time. This thread did it for me though. I am very glad to see a great, but sadly underrespected, composer being discussed.

Quartet for the End of Time is good, but hard to get into. You are better off checking the two best parts of that entitled "Louange A L'Eternite De Jesus" and "Louange A L'lmmortalite De Jesus" first. It is very dark, but this was actually composed and perfomed whilst he was in a concentration camp during WWII. I think that puts it in perspective and the music carrys a lot of power. I must warn you again though, it isn't easy on the earsSmile

The piece that started me off with Messiaen was Vocalise and that will change you. It is outerspace music. Actually, I think you should get that first if you've never heard Messiaen. You will notice structures in that piece that you find in recent minimal techno. The repetition and then the way it just goes all over the place. The guy can make you feel 2 emotions at once.

The pianist that worked most with him towards the end was a woman called Yvonne Loriod and she continued to work with him right up until his death in the 80's.

More recently, I've been into Gavin Bryars, particularly a piece for organ and soprano called The Black River (only available on this CD: http://www.ecmrecords.com/ecm/recordings/1495.html) . Also, there is a thing very recently by Murcof called Ulysses on the Leaf label that continues the ideology behind the work of composers like Messiaen and Schoenberg (also another visionary in the world of minimal, dissonance and 12TET) for me. It is minimal techno, but it's deep, man...

Easy,
NickSmile
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wicked! One of my favourite bits of modern classicla music is the groove section in stravinsky's rite of spring: it is such an amazing piece of music.
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#27
pacific Wrote:hi
hello there Wave Wave

pacific Wrote:the pianist that worked most with him towards the end was a woman called yvonne loriod and she continued to work with him right up until his death in the 80's.
actually she was his wife for nearly 40 years — most of his piano music is dedicated to her — a superb pianist Xyxthumbs

also check her sister, jeanne, the world's greatest ever exponent of the ondes Xyxthumbs

pacific Wrote:you will notice structures in that piece that you find in recent minimal techno. the repetition and then the way it just goes all over the place. the guy can make you feel 2 emotions at once.
check the slow movements of his organ pieces — they come with the instruction to the organist "extrêmement lent" and they just go on and on with subtly changing sonorities — nobody wrote slow stuff like messiaen Lovesmilie Lovesmilie

pacific Wrote:also, there is a thing very recently by murcof called ulysses on the leaf label that continues the ideology behind the work of composers like messiaen and schoenberg (also another visionary in the world of minimal, dissonance and 12tet) for me. it is minimal techno, but it's deep, man...
i shall have to check this Twothumbs
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#28
Easy Benj B + Statto, this forum is wickedSmile

NickSmile
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#29
benj b Wrote:wicked! One of my favourite bits of modern classicla music is the groove section in stravinsky's rite of spring: it is such an amazing piece of music.

Twothumbs
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#30
My sisters a pretty impressive bassoonist, so I don't go a day without hearing the opening to the rite of spring about six times Hahaha

Welcome to the board pacific! We need more people to make non-dnb threads Smile I hear what you're saying about Schoenberg, but I never really got into that much serialism. It was a good idea and all, but I just don't think it ever worked. The structure was too rigid. Did you ever hear any of his earlier stuff? It was properly majestic romantic stuff, Wagnerian! Smile
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#31
UFO_over_easy Wrote:Welcome to the board pacific! We need more people to make non-dnb threads Smile I hear what you're saying about Schoenberg, but I never really got into that much serialism. It was a good idea and all, but I just don't think it ever worked. The structure was too rigid. Did you ever hear any of his earlier stuff? It was properly majestic romantic stuff, Wagnerian! Smile

Hi,
I never really liked his Operatic work. You're right about the idea being good. It's the best thing about it really. He wrote a heck of a lot and was pretty opinionated. He said something like: "it isn't in everybody's interest to try to understand complicated things"(nowhere near a direct quoteSmile. I think the way he separates art music from music simply for enjoyment is interesting too (maybe a bit pompous though).

I don't actually have any of his works at the moment, just a documentary off the radio. He's where I go next after I've finished exploring the works of Gavin BryarsSmile

Later,
NickSmile
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#32
Statto Wrote:"My faith is the grand drama of my life. I'm a believer, so I sing words of God to those who have no faith. I give bird songs to those who dwell in cities and have never heard them, make rhythms for those who know only military marches or jazz, and paint colours for those who see none".

I'm with him except for the suggestion that jazz is somehow part of a culture of constraint; and even, to a certain extent, that (military) marches are equally stultifying.

If you've seen competitive drum choirs, you'll know that marching music can be stunning.

Interestingly--benj you'll dig this--LA's beloved and departed piano genius Horace Tapscott took quite a few of his compositional cues from marching music, and often wrote in non 4/4 sigs; compositions that, moreover, shifted the emphasis from the two and four and placed them on the one and three...and yet, it still swings somehow, in some magical way.

If you're a jazz fan and are not acquainted with Tapscott, get to know...although there is a relative poverty of recorded releases. He was a giant live, easily on the same tier as Tyner, Evans, Monk, Powell, Tatum, Petersen, Taylor, etc.
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#33
UFO_over_easy Wrote:Phillip Glass is shitty minimalism, and about three quarters of a century after Messiaen, who is without doubt the definitive modern keyboard composer.

Bless you (no offense AO!).

Few contemporary--or historical for that matter--composers induce in me a greater revulsion on listening than Glass and his ilk.

That he's gotten roped into scoring has only made certain movies terribly difficult to get through too...i.e., "The Hours," which was, otherwise, a decent movie in my opinion.

UFOOE, are you an organist?

Whatjoofink about the work of Franck? I'm rather partial to his organ music, even if it gets a bit arch in places. One of the few modern composers who retained an interest in writing for the instrument. His strong ecclesiastical background helped...but in that, he's similar to Messiaen too.

BTW, I remember a thread here a long time ago about Messiaen too I think. I wrote about hearing/seeing "Turangalila" live in SF fifteen years ago or so...with the Ondes Martinot of course. Very interesting experience; certainly more invigorating than another stock season's worth of Mozarts, and Brahms and all the other golden nuggets.
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#34
UFO_over_easy Wrote:I hear what you're saying about Schoenberg, but I never really got into that much serialism. It was a good idea and all, but I just don't think it ever worked. The structure was too rigid. Did you ever hear any of his earlier stuff? It was properly majestic romantic stuff, Wagnerian! Smile

Indeed. "Gurrelieder" and "Verklarte Nacht" were quite tonal, and very much in the thrall of Wagner...far from say the post-"Pierrot Lunaire" work.

Taking my cues from other writers, I've argued elsewhere that Schoenberg never actually completely abandoned tonality. There's a subtle but omni-present strain of classicism that informs his work; especially Schubert.

Berg and Webern took it all the way.

12 tone opera: "Wozzek" is one of my all time favorite pieces of classical music, opera, or otherwise. I do love "Lulu" too, but "Wozzeck" is the one. Tremendous, tremendous piece of music.

The play is a good read too.

That said, I am of the opinion that serialism turned into a terribly rigid doctrine that engendered generations of sour, cold, academic posturing...sort of like my posturing here!
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#35
benj b Wrote:wicked! One of my favourite bits of modern classicla music is the groove section in stravinsky's rite of spring: it is such an amazing piece of music.

Curious what you think of Prokofiev's "Scythian Suite."

...and that is highly enough of me today.

laters.
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#36
I'm truly lost in this thread



Oops
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#37
pieter Wrote:
benj b Wrote:wicked! One of my favourite bits of modern classicla music is the groove section in stravinsky's rite of spring: it is such an amazing piece of music.

Curious what you think of Prokofiev's "Scythian Suite."

...and that is highly enough of me today.

laters.

er I don't know it, soz! will check it out.
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#38
ALPHA OMEGA Wrote:I'm truly lost in this thread



Oops

well you could just post some more pics of girls with big knockers - that should balance it out a bit with the intellectual stuff Wink .
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#39
I'm lost because I've never heard of half the artists mentioned in this thread.......

Something I'll attempt to rectify in the always distant future...

Smile
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#40
ALPHA OMEGA Wrote:I'm lost because I've never heard of half the artists mentioned in this thread.......

Something I'll attempt to rectify in the always distant future...

Smile

cool, just joking about m8 Wink
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#41
R u the Benji B who plays on 1Xtra ?
Word of Mouth Lp-Thermal Records-out now.Artwork courtesy of Structure.
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#42
ufo_over_easy Wrote:i hear what you're saying about schoenberg, but i never really got into that much serialism. it was a good idea and all, but i just don't think it ever worked. the structure was too rigid. did you ever hear any of his earlier stuff? it was properly majestic romantic stuff, wagnerian! Smile
not big on the whole wagnerian thing myself (apart from the ride of the valkyries blaring out of the helicopters in apocalypse now Smile)

schoenberg i think works best on the piano
in particular...

drei klavierstücke (op.11) — he's just starting to work out his ideas, it leads to a strange expressionist atonality
sechs kleine klavierstücke (op.19) — very short pieces, and nice to play
suite für klavier (op.25) — perhaps his serialist masterpiece

of his other stuff i only really like pierrot lunaire, mainly because of its appearance in edgar reitz's die zweite heimat (if anyone watched that?)

pieter Wrote:i'm with him except for the suggestion that jazz is somehow part of a culture of constraint; and even, to a certain extent, that (military) marches are equally stultifying.

if you've seen competitive drum choirs, you'll know that marching music can be stunning.
indeed Xyxthumbs

but they still involve repeated rhythm...
messiaen was interested in breaking up rhythm and often threw in semi-quavers here and there just to make the bars irregular and destroy the pulse

but perhaps i shouldn't mention that — dnb heads might find the idea too shocking Wink
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#43
Statto Wrote:but perhaps I shouldn't mention that — dnb heads might find the idea too shocking Wink

Concerto in 5/4 on the Journey To The 9th Level lp suggests otherwise Wink
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#44
pieter Wrote:bless you (no offense ao!).

few contemporary--or historical for that matter--composers induce in me a greater revulsion on listening than glass and his ilk.

that he's gotten roped into scoring has only made certain movies terribly difficult to get through too...i.e., "the hours," which was, otherwise, a decent movie in my opinion.

i don't know that i'd go as far as to completely dismiss minimalism, i think that, unlike serialism, that's it's essentially a great idea, but very few people have done it well yet. it's a good idea that needs to be explored in greater depth, unlike serialism, which i believe burnt out, when as you say, schoenbergs followers ruined the entire principal. despite what they might've said at the time, i think what made serialism exciting to people like schoenberg was that it shocked people. it's the same as today, where people like me and statto, even though we obviously like it and think it's great music (as obviously the serialists did, otherwise they wouldn't have invested so much time in it), listen to grindcore. i don't know if this is true of statto, but the reaction it gets from people when i put it on in public gives me a sense of quiet satisfaction Smile

what i find interesting about serialism as well, is that fact that berg and webern in particular genuinely thought that it was the future, and that key signatures were dead. imagine if it had been! we might've seen a time where structurally and harmonically, musical progression might've been characterised by increasing sophistication, rather than dumbing down. even though that statement might make me seem purposefully obtuse, i think it's true, and not only with classical music. it would've been great if more people had followed up on the more adventurous strains of jazz for example, rather than having popular music dumbed down to verse chorus, verse chorus, bridge verse chorus... :d

Quote:ufooe, are you an organist?

i wish i had the talent, and the money. i'm a cellist and a drummer though Smile i could never get to grips with keyboard playing, as hard as i tried. Icon_sad

Quote:whatjoofink about the work of franck? i'm rather partial to his organ music, even if it gets a bit arch in places. one of the few modern composers who retained an interest in writing for the instrument. his strong ecclesiastical background helped...but in that, he's similar to messiaen too.

i'm actually not very familiar with the word of franck. i'll dig into my dads cd collection, there's bound to be some buried treasure in there somewhere Xyxthumbs it's good to have a father with a giant collection of classical, jazz and funk records Smile

Quote:certainly more invigorating than another stock season's worth of mozarts, and brahms and all the other golden nuggets.

true, but i won't hear a bad word said against brahms Wink

statto Wrote:schoenberg i think works best on the piano
in particular...

drei klavierstücke (op.11) — he's just starting to work out his ideas, it leads to a strange expressionist atonality
sechs kleine klavierstücke (op.19) — very short pieces, and nice to play
suite für klavier (op.25) — perhaps his serialist masterpiece

all good, and i think you're right. his serialist stuff works best on piano, but i don't think that serialism in general would work best on the piano. i wish that when serialism was around they had experimented more with orchestral works, because in my opinion when the structure of the music is so rigidly set out, you have to rely on textural elements to grab the listeners interest, so the use of the piano is probably limited before it starts to feel old. i reckon that when you have tons of different instruments to play with, that's when the fun should start Xyxthumbs

statto Wrote:but perhaps i shouldn't mention that — dnb heads might find the idea too shocking

to be honest, i think they've lost interest already Hahaha

ps: both you guys need to add me to your aim or msn accounts, it'd be cool to chat about stuff like this in real time Xyxthumbs
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#45
ALPHA OMEGA Wrote:
Statto Wrote:but perhaps I shouldn't mention that — dnb heads might find the idea too shocking Wink

Concerto in 5/4 on the Journey To The 9th Level lp suggests otherwise Wink

5/4 Twothumbs

but technically it's still a pulse — just an irregular one
Messaien liked to eliminate the pulse

simple example... 4/4 time but with bars here and there with 3½ beats, or 4½ beats Baffled Smile
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#46
ufo_over_easy Wrote:listen to grindcore. i don't know if this is true of statto, but the reaction it gets from people when i put it on in public gives me a sense of quiet satisfaction Smile
shocking people's ears is fun Grin

but basically it can only be done in a form they have some familiarity with — in this case rock. if you play them something too far outside their experience they won't be able to react

ufo_over_easy Wrote:what i find interesting about serialism as well, is that fact that berg and webern in particular genuinely thought that it was the future, and that key signatures were dead. imagine if it had been! we might've seen a time where structurally and harmonically, musical progression might've been characterised by increasing sophistication, rather than dumbing down.
i think classical music did get increasingly sophisticated (firstly with the darmstadt crew following on from where serialists left off), but then so much so that it disappeared up its own arse

it still seems to be struggling to find meaning in what it's doing Roll

ufo_over_easy Wrote:it would've been great if more people had followed up on the more adventurous strains of jazz for example
i'm sure they are — if you search around for them Xyxthumbs

ufo_over_easy Wrote:i won't hear a bad word said against brahms Wink
no indeed Xyxthumbs

ufo_over_easy Wrote:all good, and i think you're right. his serialist stuff works best on piano, but i don't think that serialism in general would work best on the piano. i wish that when serialism was around they had experimented more with orchestral works, because in my opinion when the structure of the music is so rigidly set out, you have to rely on textural elements to grab the listeners interest, so the use of the piano is probably limited before it starts to feel old. i reckon that when you have tons of different instruments to play with, that's when the fun should start Xyxthumbs
i just like the clarity of the piano — ideas can expressed with complexity and still remain easily appreciable Xyxthumbs

ufo_over_easy Wrote:ps: both you guys need to add me to your aim or msn accounts, it'd be cool to chat about stuff like this in real time
aim = subvert47statto

but i hardly ever go there since i'm not really very chatty [Image: tapedshut.gif] Oops
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#47
he's not really very chatty but still has over 7000 posts?

Someone's telling fibs!!!
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#48
ALPHA OMEGA Wrote:he's not really very chatty but still has over 7000 posts?

that's posty not chatty Wink

same difference as between emails and phone calls
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#49
I don't know Y i 'ave a fone sometimez I never used the damn thing.

If you can't get 2 me on aim,email or website then you can't get 2 me FULLSTOP!!!

Which reminds me,I must go call my mom......
Word of Mouth Lp-Thermal Records-out now.Artwork courtesy of Structure.
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#50
statto Wrote:i think classical music did get increasingly sophisticated (firstly with the darmstadt crew following on from where serialists left off), but then so much so that it disappeared up its own arse

it depends what you mean by sophistication. i think serialism was interesting because it had a structure,and it had a purpose. to me it seems like most very modern classical music is complicated for the sake of being complicated. like you say, it has no meaning.

statto Wrote:i'm sure they are — if you search around for them Xyxthumbs

but that's the point. when miles davis produced albums like in a silent way and bitches brew, they were popular! they still are. in popular music today, there is nothing remotely adventurous, and even popular jazz has become a watered down parody of itself - see norah jones. sure, people have carried of where free jazz pioneers left off, but it was never ingrained in the popular psyche.
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