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messiaen anyone? olivier

Olivier Messiaen anyone?

#76
Statto Wrote:
UFO_over_easy Wrote:I like a lot of Cages work, like his stuff for prepared piano. I went to a concert in the festival hall a while back which was the London Sinfonietta playing orchestrated versions of Warp artists. Interesting stuff Smile It was interspered by works by John Cage, Stockhausen and Ligeti, and also video's of stuff like Monkey Drummer and Granz Graf Smile

do you know his Constructions (for percussion ensemble)?

Drums

actually I think that's where the prepared piano came from... it was too much trouble getting all the percussion together, so he made a single player percussion instrument by preparing the piano

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Palestine (damn you all) got himself a Bosendorfer Grand Imperial piano thingy - the biggest monsta there is in the piano world - it goes a full octave lower than any other! He recorded some beautiful prepared pieces too...
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#77
naphta Wrote:palestine (damn you all) got himself a bosendorfer grand imperial piano thingy - the biggest monsta there is in the piano world - it goes a full octave lower than any other! he recorded some beautiful prepared pieces too...

interesting you should mention bosendorfer in this thread
the recordings i have of messiaen's piano music were played on a bosendorfer

Xyxthumbs

actually messiaen may have specified a bosendorfer
not sure about that though Baffled
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#78
statto Wrote:interesting you should mention bosendorfer in this thread
the recordings i have of messiaen's piano music were played on a bosendorfer

Xyxthumbs

actually messiaen may have specified a bosendorfer
not sure about that though Baffled


big up the bosendorfer massive.

have you heard palestine, stattisimo?
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#79
naphta Wrote:have you heard palestine, stattisimo?

persistent aren't you Wink

answer... No No
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#80
statto Wrote:
naphta Wrote:have you heard palestine, stattisimo?

persistent aren't you Wink

answer... No No

the reason i ask is because i can do you up a cd of some and send it yer way. but... do you have some sorta primitive cd player that won't accept them modern cds...? (cos i really can't make you a cassette copy i'm afraid....)
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#81
Naphta Wrote:The reason I ask is because I can do you up a CD of some and send it yer way. But... do you have some sorta primitive CD player that won't accept them modern CDs...? (Cos I really can't make you a cassette copy I'm afraid....)

a CD would be grand

Icon_yippee Icon_yippee
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#82
omg watch the 2 dinosaurs try to send cd's with their primitive equipments....

They should bring back 8track tapes just for you oldies!!!!

Hahaha
Word of Mouth Lp-Thermal Records-out now.Artwork courtesy of Structure.
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'There's no such thing as selling out just buying in'

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#83
ALPHA OMEGA Wrote:omg watch the 2 dinosaurs try to send cd's with their primitive equipments....

They should bring back 8track tapes for you oldies!!!!

Hahaha

My equipment's in perfect nick you cheeky monkey! It's Statto - he still uses the old money fer Chrissakes..
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#84
Statto Wrote:a CD would be grand

Icon_yippee Icon_yippee

It shall be done. A Charlemagne Palestine CD for a Statto Happy Hardcore non-mix tape! Perfect!
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#85
there's nothing wrong with old money!

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#86
Naphta Wrote:A Charlemagne Palestine CD for a Statto Happy Hardcore non-mix tape! Perfect!

right so Oops
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#87
Statto Wrote:there's nothing wrong with old money!

[Image: 9558.gif]

L. S. D. ?
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#88
Don't have time to read the whole thread, but:
Quote:Phillip Glass is shitty minimalism, and about three quarters of a century after Messiaen, who is without doubt the definitive modern keyboard composer

Completely disagree with whoever said this (sorry can't remember who). Messaien hasn't had that much effect on keyboard music to be honest. 'Modern' music started with Debussy and if anyone this century could be said to have been the most significant keyboard composer it would probably be him. He completely transformed romantic perceptions of tonality - later modern composers never achieved the popularity that they hoped for and just haven't been able to infiltrate the musical canon.

His organ music is spectacular but there are other composers who've had a far greater effect on the keyboard repertory. He isn't that much earlier than Glass either - he only died in 1992. And minimalism isn't shitty, it's better than serialism and atonal music :P
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#89
Quote:Basically, Phillip Glass writes minimalism where he concentrates on repeating melody in certain parts, like a ground bass for example, and then just packs as many themes as he can on top of it. The minimalism I tend to like is far more subtle than that, and often concentrates on harmony more than it does on melody. This means that it can be quite hard to find the strands of harmony that link the themes together, which is a great challenge in my opinion

But the very nature of minimalism restricts the pace of harmonic rhythm, and it's not so much a case of concentrating on melody either. Minimalism is about the manipulation of cells and motives, it's not that themes get packed on top of a ground bass, it's more that certain cells or gestures are altered and varied. I don't know what you mean by strands of harmony that link the themes together... Themes can be unifed by harmony but not really linked, and I'm not sure that you could really describe harmony in terms of strands.

Ooh this is so much more interesting than DNBA!
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#90
Mixolydian Wrote:Completely disagree with whoever said this (sorry can't remember who). Messaien hasn't had that much effect on keyboard music to be honest.
I think the claim was that Messiaen made the greatest (in both senses) body of 20th Century keyboard music, not that his music was especially influential on anybody else — it wasn't... Messiaen had his own unique vision — and in his own teaching he stressed that his pupils find their own visions too

Mixolydian Wrote:'Modern' music started with Debussy and if anyone this century could be said to have been the most significant keyboard composer it would probably be him.
there is truth in that — Messiaen's early piano works owe a fair bit to Debussy (although they're already distinctively Messaien)

Mixolydian Wrote:He isn't that much earlier than Glass either - he only died in 1992.
hmmmm

Philip Glass — born 1937
by which time Messiaen had already written these...

1917 La dame de Shalott - Piano
1921 Deux ballades de Villon - Voice & Piano
1925 La tristesse d'un grand ciel blanc - Piano
1927 Esquisse modale - Organ
1928 Fugue in D Minor - Orchestral
1928 L'hôte aimable des âmes - Organ
1928 La banquet eucharistique - Orchestral
1928 Le banquet céleste - Organ (Leduc)
1928 Variations écossaises - Organ
1928-29 Préludes - Piano (Durand)
1930 Diptyque - Organ (Durand)
1930 La mort du nombre - Vocal/Chamber - sop, ten, violin, piano (Durand)
1930 Les offrandes oubliées - Orchestral (Durand)
1930 Les offrandes Oubliées - Piano version (Durand)
1930/35 Offrande au Saint Sacrement - Organ (Leduc)
1930 Simple chant d'une âme - Orchestral
1930 Trois mélodies - Voice & Piano (Durand)
1932 Apparition de l'église éternelle - Organ (Lemoine)
1932 Fantaisie Burlesque - Piano (Durand)
1932 Hymne au Saint Sacrament - Orchestral (Bro)
1932 Thème et variations - Chamber - violin & piano (Leduc)
1932-33 L'Ascension - Orchestral (Leduc)
1933 Fantasie - Chamber - violin & piano
1933 Mass - Vocal - 8 sopranos 4 violins
1933-34 L'Ascension - Organ (Leduc)
1934 5 Leçons de Solfege a chanter - treble clef & piano accom. (Lemoine)
1934 Morceau for Piano
1935 La Nativité du Seigneur - Organ (Leduc)
1935 Pièce pour le tombeau de Paul Dukas - Piano (Durand)
1935 Vocalise - Voice & piano (Leduc)
1936 Poèmes pour Mi - Vocal - sop & piano (Durand)
1937 O sacrum convivium - Vocal SATB or sop & organ (Durand)
1937 Poèmes pour Mi - Sop & Orchestra (Durand)
1937 Fêtes des Belles Eaux - Ondes Martenots

Twothumbs
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#91
Mixolydian Wrote:Completely disagree with whoever said this (sorry can't remember who). Messaien hasn't had that much effect on keyboard music to be honest. 'Modern' music started with Debussy and if anyone this century could be said to have been the most significant keyboard composer it would probably be him. He completely transformed romantic perceptions of tonality - later modern composers never achieved the popularity that they hoped for and just haven't been able to infiltrate the musical canon.

Twas me.

Whoever said Messiaen had a really big effect on keyboard music? Phillip Glass has had more influence on other composers because he's been more successful! That doesn't make it better music. That doesn't change my opinion that Messiaen had far more to say than any modern keyboard composers, especially given the social context that he was writing in.

I don't think Debussy was modern either. He was on one of the earliest fringes of impressionism which was can be very firmly classified as romantic. He did change peoples perceptions of tonality though, because he was one of the first people to make almost constant use of non-functional harmony. That I agree with. But you can't say that this was thethe start of a new period of music. His changes weren't radical enough, Beethoven, late in his life, composed a lot of very dissonant string quartets in particular which were far before Debussy even thought about starting to compose. He was one of the biggest influences on modern keyboard music though.

Mixolydian Wrote:His organ music is spectacular but there are other composers who've had a far greater effect on the keyboard repertory. He isn't that much earlier than Glass either - he only died in 1992. And minimalism isn't shitty, it's better than serialism and atonal music :P

Personal opinion. I find minimalism boring and repetitive, (duh,) whereas serialism was challenging and exciting in its early stages, before it became too much like mathematical formuli. Atonal music is great in general. If we were till creating music completely based on the triad we'd still be stuck in the baroque period writing two-part fugues. Messiaen may not have had a great effect on modern keyboard music, but his influence on almost every single modern composer who uses dissonance even a little bit cannot be ignored, whereas all Phillip Glass will be remembered for is a few terrible film scores and coffee table music that fashionable art students listen to... Grin
Wink
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#92
Quote:I don't think Debussy was modern either. He was on one of the earliest fringes of impressionism which was can be very firmly classified as romantic. He did change peoples perceptions of tonality though, because he was one of the first people to make almost constant use of non-functional harmony. That I agree with. But you can't say that this was thethe start of a new period of music. His changes weren't radical enough, Beethoven, late in his life, composed a lot of very dissonant string quartets in particular which were far before Debussy even thought about starting to compose. He was one of the biggest influences on modern keyboard music though
The word modern actually refers to a general style of music rather than a specific period. There are works composed in 1945 that are more modern than some composed in 1990. It was Debussy's Prelude from L'Apres Midi d'une Faune that actually kicked off the modernist style - and this was in 1895, so he did start a new period of music. Impressionism is not the same as romanticism, it is a genre in its own right. Beethoven's later works did make dissonances more acceptable but he remained firmly rooted in tonality, whereas Debussy's music turned this romantic idea on its head. His music is a wash of modal tonality, neither major nor minor.

I take your point about Messaien not being influential, didn't realise that's not what you meant Smile
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#93
Mixolydian Wrote:The word modern actually refers to a general style of music rather than a specific period. There are works composed in 1945 that are more modern than some composed in 1990. It was Debussy's Prelude from L'Apres Midi d'une Faune that actually kicked off the modernist style - and this was in 1895, so he did start a new period of music.

have you heard the stuff from the composers associated with the Papal court at Avignon?

weird 20th century harmonies — from the late 14th century Icon_eek
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#94
Doesn't surprise me - Medieval music was based on modes, so will sound more like twentieth century music than the classical or baroque eras. I went to a lecture about this on Tuesday night actually, fascinating stuff. The lecturer kept going on about anal sex in Italian madrigals LOL.
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#95
Mixolydian Wrote:Doesn't surprise me - Medieval music was based on modes
the Avignon stuff isn't modal though
a lot of it is chromatic with weird arrangements and configurations

most excellent Twothumbs

Mixolydian Wrote:I went to a lecture about this on Tuesday night actually, fascinating stuff. The lecturer kept going on about anal sex in Italian madrigals LOL.
Hahaha
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#96
Statto Wrote:
Mixolydian Wrote:The word modern actually refers to a general style of music rather than a specific period. There are works composed in 1945 that are more modern than some composed in 1990. It was Debussy's Prelude from L'Apres Midi d'une Faune that actually kicked off the modernist style - and this was in 1895, so he did start a new period of music.

have you heard the stuff from the composers associated with the Papal court at Avignon?

weird 20th century harmonies — from the late 14th century Icon_eek

Can you recommend any CDs to purchase Statto? I'm interested in pre-modern (by that I mean before the 1600s, historical, not musical chronology I know) musics but have never spent time investigating.
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#97
Mixolydian Wrote:The word modern actually refers to a general style of music rather than a specific period. There are works composed in 1945 that are more modern than some composed in 1990.

Sorry, not true.

There are five periods of music.

Renaissance, baroque, classical, romantic, modern, (and arguably post-modern.)

The rough dates of where each period began and ended were as follows.

Renassiance - 1400 - 1600
Baroque - 1600-1750
Classical - 1750-1820
Romantic - 1820-1920
Modern - 1920-

Sorry, I know that these time periods are pretty anal, seeing as anyone knows that some composers will have been before and ahead of their times, but these are what music professors and students consider to be the rough time-scales, placing Debussy firmly in the romantic period. Obviously impressionism created a new ouvre for composers, but the departure from dissonant romantic music just isn't great enough for it to merit a whole new timescale.
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#98
Logos Wrote:Can you recommend any CDs to purchase Statto? I'm interested in pre-modern (by that I mean before the 1600s, historical, not musical chronology I know) musics but have never spent time investigating.

anything by David Munrow & the Early Music Consort of London Twothumbs

in particular The Art of Courtly Love, which is a reissue of three LPs...

The Art of Guillaume de Machaut (middle 14th Century)
Late Fourteenth Century Avant Garde
The Court of Burgundy (early to middle 15th century; Dufay & Binchois)

but note that the voice is usually the lead instrument in this stuff, e.g.
— tenor, descant recorder, citole, bass rebec, harp
— two counter tenors, alto shawm, slide trumpet
— tenor, two tenor crumhorns
etc.

all good, but maybe you're after instrumental music?
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#99
statto Wrote:
logos Wrote:can you recommend any cds to purchase statto? i'm interested in pre-modern (by that i mean before the 1600s, historical, not musical chronology i know) musics but have never spent time investigating.

anything by david munrow & the early music consort of london Twothumbs

in particular the art of courtly love, which is a reissue of three lps...

the art of guillaume de machaut (middle 14th century)
late fourteenth century avant garde
the court of burgundy (early to middle 15th century; dufay & binchois)

but note that the voice is usually the lead instrument in this stuff, e.g.
— tenor, descant recorder, citole, bass rebec, harp
— two counter tenors, alto shawm, slide trumpet
— tenor, two tenor crumhorns
etc.

all good, but maybe you're after instrumental music?

not necessarily, i don't dislike choral stuff. that is a good a place to start as any i think - thanks a lot :P Xyxthumbs
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logos Wrote:not necessarily, i don't dislike choral stuff. that is a good a place to start as any i think - thanks a lot :P Xyxthumbs

it's not really choral music either (choral music tends to be a bit later — 16th century and onwards)

this is stuff with small groups of instruments, of which the voice is one (or more) instrument(s) — though usually the leading one
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