ARRANGEMENTS

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being technologically inept,i'm totally new to all this chat shit so you guys have to help me out
you can send files and stuff back and forth on messenger systems like msn or aim.

then you can load a project file, or a sample or whever, and keep sending the ish back and forth....neet eh!?

i could be into some trans-continental collabs....macc and have been talking about it. i'm down for whatever....just bring TEH MUSIC!
your on mate!
Lets do it! Jig
Naphta Wrote:As did Macc from this thread hahahahahahaa!!!! Not enough Drumworks for ya Mr. Maccster?! Teef

Nah, I went home and did something with the rest of my life. You should try it Teef


Naphta, you need to stop drinking so much coffee when you are near a computer. Firstly, less than half what you said about Photek was actually regarding his arrangement - you spoke plenty more about his production - OT FFS!



Regarding the repetetive arrangement injury thing; stop blaming cubase for the fact your arrangements are boring - it doesn't put the fucking blocks out for you does it? Roll

I agree it is more aesthetically pleasing when you look at a tune and everything looks nice, the drop is at bar 65, the breakdown at bar 129 yadda yadda - but FUCK that, do it (edits/drops/whatever) when you HEAR IT. Either way, Cubase (or Logic blah blah) still doesn't MAKE you do anything.


Admittedly I have fallen foul of it enough times - but I never blamed my sequencer......

What a bag of shite! :P



Re: Straight lines: What dsp said about turning off his monitor, I do more or less the same thing, I turn and face the other way and listen. Then when I hear something in my head that needs to happen, I do it asafp.



And all I can say (without trying to be too smug about it) is check my tune Dilations - a ffaaaaaairly standard arrangement with some what-the-fuck-happened-there bits, adding up to a non-standard arrangement (imo). Ain't JUST straight lines anyway. It should be in John Doe's next archive.
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
Macc Wrote:Nah, I went home and did something with the rest of my life. You should try it Teef


Roll Yeah... like 'More Snax' anyone?

Quote:Naphta, you need to stop drinking so much coffee when you are near a computer. Firstly, less than half what you said about Photek was actually regarding his arrangement - you spoke plenty more about his production - OT FFS!

Roll I was waiting for you to catch up!

OK: I would have thought you understood, but here's more.... Photek defined the 'classic' 'serious music' drum n bass arrangement i.e. teaser intro, drop beats, drop bass, dropout, workout, breakdown, roll-out. If you can't hear that in his tunes, I'm not sure I can explain it any better to you - try listening to any of his tunes as The Sentinel on Basement or even to any of his Truper stuff on Streetbeats.

I mentioned his production in order to illustrate how his 'science of sound' took over - by the time he got to Modus Operandi (honourable exception to Minotaur/Aleph perhaps although it's mainly cos they kinda merge together as one tune on the LP) he'd reduced his arrangements to straight lines - mere platforms for his production (Smoke Rings don't really count in my book cos it's more like a virtual drum workout than a tune). BTW, even Ni Ten pretty much follows the standard plan.

Not so bad of course when he was dealing in more organic sounds - but following d+b's conversion to the techy sound (that 'Special Forces' tune on his own label), his rhythms had been reduced to beautifully-produced steppy plodding. Without the extra drive of breakbeat energy, his straight line approach was revealed for what it was - actually quite a conservative approach to arrangement.

Quote:Regarding the repetetive arrangement injury thing; stop blaming cubase for the fact your arrangements are boring - it doesn't put the fucking blocks out for you does it? Roll

Hmmm.... maybe you ought to look into the Cubase thing yerself matey...? Twisted

Quote:I agree it is more aesthetically pleasing when you look at a tune and everything looks nice, the drop is at bar 65, the breakdown at bar 129 yadda yadda - but FUCK that, do it (edits/drops/whatever) when you HEAR IT. Either way, Cubase (or Logic blah blah) still doesn't MAKE you do anything.

It's nothing to do with being aesthetically pleasing. As a DJ, making tunes that are mixable is my primary concern. The visual aspect of Cubase just exacerbates the downside of building tracks to that formula.

Quote:Admittedly I have fallen foul of it enough times - but I never blamed my sequencer......

'Blame'? Roll

Quote:And all I can say (without trying to be too smug about it) is check my tune Dilations - a ffaaaaaairly standard arrangement with some what-the-fuck-happened-there bits, adding up to a non-standard arrangement (imo). Ain't JUST straight lines anyway. It should be in John Doe's next archive.

Never 'eard it mate!
macc said : Regarding the repetetive arrangement injury thing; stop blaming cubase for the fact your arrangements are boring - it doesn't put the fucking blocks out for you does it? Rolling Eyes ,


i know that but i what i was getting at is that if you make a tune with say an akai mpc where you can't see the arrangement it opens doors because you can only here what you have done, i never ment that cubase cuases crap arrangments (only the producer can to that ) Its just familiar stuff on scrren can actually do ya head in after 1000000000 hours of sitting in front of it, I certainly have been working differently recently even before this thread,
Naphta Wrote:Roll Yeah... like 'More Snax' anyone?

Dear oh dear...... Do you reeeally think that I go home and 'study' snacks all night?


Quote:OK: I would have thought you understood, but here's more.... Photek defined the 'classic' 'serious music' drum n bass arrangement i.e. teaser intro, drop beats, drop bass, dropout, workout, breakdown, roll-out. If you can't hear that in his tunes, I'm not sure I can explain it any better to you - try listening to any of his tunes as The Sentinel on Basement or even to any of his Truper stuff on Streetbeats.

I mentioned his production in order to illustrate how ..... he'd reduced his arrangements to straight lines - mere platforms for his production .....
his rhythms had been reduced to beautifully-produced steppy plodding. Without the extra drive of breakbeat energy, his straight line approach was revealed for what it was - actually quite a conservative approach to arrangement.

Okay, you have made it clearer there. I get your point now.

Quote:Hmmm.... maybe you ought to look into the Cubase thing yerself matey...? Twisted

Not sure what you mean there - either you are saying use Cubase, which I do, or you are saying my arrangements are boring, which is fair enough.



Quote:It's nothing to do with being aesthetically pleasing. As a DJ, making tunes that are mixable is my primary concern. The visual aspect of Cubase just exacerbates the downside of building tracks to that formula.

But visually aestehetically pleasing in Cubase pretty much does = mixable (everything lined up, everything making nice easy to move chunks etc etc)

How does it exacerbate the downside? Again I am missing your point. Surely the downside is that it makes the music boring, irrespective of what it looks like.... Your person in the club doesn't know or care what it looks like, it's just boring to them, so how does it exacerbate it? Baffled


Quote:'Blame'? Roll

That's what it read like to me. 'cubase causes repetitve arrangement injury' - what's that then? (fwiw dsp's tunes are nicely arranged I think, always pretty interesting)

Quote:Never 'eard it mate!

Well get the archive then, pissface :P


And @ dsp: Didn't mean to sound insulting, but if you read it back it does read like blaming cubase/whatever.

All you have to remember is: Music is Aural, not visual - fuck what it looks like.


Smile to all!
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
Macc Wrote:Dear oh dear...... Do you reeeally think that I go home and 'study' snacks all night?

I bust my ass in the studio too you jerk! Why do you suppose that simply because I have the ability to discuss things online that it somehow means that I am also incapbale of action? It's like Chris INP assuming that because I like to talk and debate online that I somehow 'waste' my whole life doing nothing else. Get this, for fuck's sakes: when I'm online, I'm in work. And when I'm in work, there are long periods WHEN I HAVE NOTHING TO DO. You talk about snax, drums and yourself; I talk about Jungle and History. So fucking what? When I'm not in work, I'm in the studio. I may have had less success than you in fine-honing my style, but I can assure that it's not for lack of trying. Ask anyone who knows me.

Quote:Not sure what you mean there - either you are saying use Cubase, which I do, or you are saying my arrangements are boring, which is fair enough.

I'm saying I haven't heard ANY nu skool d+b productions (bar from Sileni) which don't appear clearly bound by one formula or another. BTW, I don't think my own arrangements are boring at all, I'm simply struggling to fit in all I want to while keeping the sum total accessible in the way that I want it to be... and yes, I know you can't relate to that last part.

So... how does it exacerbate the downside? Like any tools of any trade, continued use of them is habit-forming. As dance music is bound to formula, the visual side of Cubase exacerbates this.

Quote:Your person in the club doesn't know or care what it looks like, it's just boring to them, so how does it exacerbate it? Baffled

What's boring to who now?
Naphta Wrote:I bust my ass in the studio too you jerk! Why do you suppose that simply because I have the ability to discuss things online that it somehow means that I am also incapbale of action? It's like Chris INP assuming that because I like to talk and debate online that I somehow 'waste' my whole life doing nothing else. Get this, for fuck's sakes: when I'm online, I'm in work. And when I'm in work, there are long periods WHEN I HAVE NOTHING TO DO. You talk about snax, drums and yourself; I talk about Jungle and History. So fucking what? When I'm not in work, I'm in the studio. I may have had less success than you in fine-honing my style, but I can assure that it's not for lack of trying. Ask anyone who knows me.

Okay man, calm down!

We are essentially the same then, that's great.

But I wouldn't say I have honed my style oh no no no way Neutral



Quote:I'm saying I haven't heard ANY nu skool d+b productions (bar from Sileni) which don't appear clearly bound by one formula or another. BTW, I don't think my own arrangements are boring at all, I'm simply struggling to fit in all I want to while keeping the sum total accessible in the way that I want it to be... and yes, I know you can't relate to that last part.

Fair do's.

This does, IMO, come back to 'on the whole, dnb DJ's WANT formula' Icon_sad

Quote:So... how does it exacerbate the downside? Like any tools of any trade, continued use of them is habit-forming. As dance music is bound to formula, the visual side of Cubase exacerbates this.

Only if you allow it to. Not sayig I have mastered that demon YET, but I am getting there.

Quote:What's boring to who now?

It's okay, I get what you mean now.

We keep doing this, eh. Grin Kisskiss
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
Macc Wrote:This does, IMO, come back to 'on the whole, dnb DJ's WANT formula' Icon_sad

Yes. Because for me (ideally) the DJ still provides the final link in the chain of communication... the DJ mediates the sounds for the people - makes the music come alive and puts it in its proper context!

Kisskiss
naphta Wrote:
macc Wrote:this does, imo, come back to 'on the whole, dnb dj's want formula' Icon_sad

yes. because for me (ideally) the dj still provides the final link in the chain of communication... the dj mediates the sounds for the people - makes the music come alive and puts it in its proper context!

Kisskiss

enough of that kissing!

at least until you've cleaned your teeth [Image: teefpirate.gif]


the dj does do that, too right........ but how do you propose we get around the problem that most dj's will not play stuff that fucks around with the formula, cos people might not dance, and therefore they might be seen as a crap dj?

i know your intent for your stuff is more to be accessible and interesting at the same time, while mine is more just to be interesting (to me), accessibility is not for me to judge.

but for people trying to push the format, what can be done?
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
Macc it is down to the dj to try and introduce the crowd to something new but it has to be done slowly so as not to scare them and not to be called a crap dj... so just drop a couple here n there. it will take time though .

but for it to happen it needs to START Grin
And to me it will show the sign of a very good dj if they can work 1 or 2 into there set without throwing the crowd too much
markgabba Wrote:And to me it will show the sign of a very good dj if they can work 1 or 2 into there set without throwing the crowd too much

well fracture seams to do this well!! and dj m, esb, wilshy , to name but a few, im sure one day the world will wake up and smell the cheese ,

its down to the promotors of events to give a shit too, with who they book they make a differnce, look at technicality for instance
markgabba Wrote:macc it is down to the dj to try and introduce the crowd to something new

i know - but that is my point.

i can honestly think of four (maybe five) dj's with the guts to play something they like whether they think the crowd 'know/get it' or not.

and full-on 150% respect to those dudes.


the dj's have to raise their game - simple beat matching is sooooo last season, honey!

wilsh for example - he takes the piss, double dropping tunes and doing quality mixing every time, etc etc. but he imo is still not pushing his talent - he has a lot more to give. he could/should (maybe, not that i presume to tell him how to use his undeniable talent) be the dj who really can work in tunes that other dj's would baulk at mixing.

i dunno, like imagine some tune that only has (for whatever reason) 16 bars you can mix, and the rest is all tempo-all-over-the-shop madness. most dj's simply wouldn't bother, but if it can be mixed, why not?

unless of course the tune is crap :d if it is good though.......

yeah, so imo, a lot of dj's could raise their game a bit. approach it more like hip-hop/breaks dj's, just chopping stuff in and the hell with what fucking tempo it is. when it is done well.......... Homerdrool

so i suppose i am suggesting a non-linear 'not-on-the-train-for-two-hours' approach to djing......


Chin
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
yeah you r bang on the money man...

even if its playing a few tunes a set it would be nice to hear

why not find some tune thats 4/4 for the first 3rd of the track which then drops to a 3/4 for the second 3rd and then back to 4/4 for the last 3rd of the track ( if you get me ) cos it shouldnt put off djs who are scared of mixing odd timed stuff
markgabba Wrote:yeah you r bang on the money man...

even if its playing a few tunes a set it would be nice to hear

why not find some tune thats 4/4 for the first 3rd of the track which then drops to a 3/4 for the second 3rd and then back to 4/4 for the last 3rd of the track ( if you get me ) cos it shouldnt put off djs who are scared of mixing odd timed stuff

because it might throw the crowd off, cos it seems these days everyone is too stupid to understand anything other than 4/4 Roll (that was sarcasm btw).

that's exactly what i mean - very very few dj's are willing to take the risk, and so producers don't.

look at suv - he was doing three beat, people liked it but most dj's wouldn't play it, and now look at him. Thumbd
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
Yeah its a catch 22 situation .... both the dj and producer need to make the effort fot it to work.
I'd DJ if I had CDJ's or normal decks or anything like that, but...... I haven't, and can't afford them.

Besides - real drumming kills DJ'ing *waits for flames*
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
Twisted

Grin
Dunno.. I've always made an effort to find a way to fit in the stuff that I like. I've been a resident with Bassbin since 96 and in that time I've played out everything from Ni Ten Ichi Ryu, Suv's 3-beat stuff, pretty much anything and everything by Paradox (since 95), all old vintage Reinforced up to and including (some) 2nd Wave.. tons of old Cert 18, new Inperspective, Offshore etc. etc. all mixed up with old skool ragga tearouts, jump-up rollers etc. etc.

But I won't be obtuse for the sake of it. At the end of the day, my role as DJ is to entertain, and to give people a soundtrack to lose themselves in - and like any good storyteller, I have to suck in my audience first in order to get them interested. Something is only different or surprising or challenging in context i.e. when it has something to be different from. If I was only interested in pleasing myself, I could come out and drop a 25 minute wall of noise, or a 20 minute Rashied Ali drum solo... or some pygmie music... but so what? How would I have converted anyone to my sonic worldview like that?

A DJ needs to have the trust of his audience before he can take them somewhere new.
Naphta Wrote:A DJ needs to have the trust of his audience before he can take them somewhere new.

I understand that, of course.... The writer analogy is a good one, twists and turns in the 'plot' so to speak, while maintaining a thread to hang on to.

But the sort of DJ I am referring to just simply does not take anyone anywhere new........ He/she gets the trust of the audience...... and that's it.

I understand that I am probably insulting a lot of DJ's saying all this, but well........ It has to be said.

To any DJ's reading (except you Naphta as you are obviously already the complete DJ Wink Grin ), no offense - but almost anybody can match beats and make a mix. What are YOU going to do to raise the standard?



{Yeah, maybe I am a snotty stuck-up arrogant cunt cos I play drums and do something different, and all these silly 'turntables are musical instruments, and those who don't DJ but play instruments are always looking down their noses blah fucking blah' arguments are bound to emerge........ But I have had them all before (http://www.cubase.net Grin ). }
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Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
Macc Wrote:To any DJ's reading (except you Naphta as you are obviously already the complete DJ Wink Grin )

I'm gonna have to start a petition to get this one Roll called 'default 4 MACC'.

Quote:What are YOU going to do to raise the standard?

I set an example.
BTW Macc -what are YOU going to do to earn the trust of your audience?

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