IS IT JUST ME OR......

I like Amens! I like Reeces! I like lots of the simplest most basic shit that excites in this music (even 2-step was good, for a while, back in the No-U-Turn era). However, what I don't like is any of the above all the fucking time cos it's gets like a kid beating out the same notes on a piano over and over and over.. I'd rule NOTHING out... after that, it's just a matter of personal taste as to whether or not someone is abusing the format by just serving up sameness.

Word.

Naphta, you expand on this a bit a few posts later (what I'll call the fetishization of beats/breaks), but I'll use this as a springboard.

There's nothing wrong with using familiar sounds and elements, for it's what you do with them rather than are you using them or not that makes the tune. Granted, I tire easily of amens, but I don't rule them out either. I also do not dismiss all two-step as being automatically retrograde. One of my forthcoming singles will prove that (although it's, uh, kind of a gentle exercise in two-stepism, and I'm not saying it's good; only that it puts my money where my mouth is).

What I resent as much as the numbing monotony of snares on the two and four for hours straight (in some cases, literally, without one single changeup, depending on the DJ) are the nutjobs who fetishize "proper beats and breaks" to the exclusion of all else. Strangely, it's DOA, not this board, that seems to harbor such beat fascists (yes, I'll call them beat fascists). They will reflexively and absolutely, categorically dismiss any tune no matter how potentially otherwise interesting it might be as worthless if it doesn't adhere to their doctrinaire notion of what a tune MUST be. That, to me, is negative and exlusive.

Sorry, guess I had to get that off my chest.

I think that in creating a forum or a collective, where people who look for emotion, creativity and new ideas in music would be a very positive thing, and instead of focussing on whats WRONG with everything, focussing on whats RIGHT with what you are doing will create a more positive atmosphere within which people can develop their ideas and sounds.

A more inclusive approach to creating a new music is what is needed instead of this us vs them attitude that prevails.....by focusing on producing music that you love, by showcasing what your own ideas on what direction your music should take and by looking at it in a positive light will only encourage others to become involved.

To be honest, im slightly intimidated by the millitant attitudes that are sometimes expressed by both sides of this debate which is why i think that naphta's idea of an inclusive positive way of progressing things can only be good and im sure there are a lot of other people out there who like both the more emotionally satisfying music that the likes of SB, inperspective etc. are putting out and the straight up nod your head, dance and forget about everything else stuff that the more mainstream heads are doing would agree with me (i hope)

Exactly...and exactly what I was thinking about above.

I'll add this though: I think the difference between some of the people I see online who are constantly trashing anything that doesn't adhere to their worldview and 'us' (this first person plural biznizz makes me nervous for some reason; too movement-ish) is that alongside OUR carping and whinging and complaining are our achievements, the work WE do; the tunes we write, labels we run, sites we run, copy we write, records we buy, etc. We could in fact withdraw every critical utterance and still be left with something that is fundamentally positive, constructive, and forward-looking. That we have opinions that are critical and care to share them is ancillary to the ultimate reason we are here in the first place. That's not meant as an excuse for being critical; I could argue at length that any artistic phenomenon--product--is always already its own inherent critique of its larger artistic context and all the products that comprise that context. I'll not go up my own ass....suffice it to say that--as I said above--our money is where our mouths are, and the verbal jousting and exhanges here and elsewhere are a useful adjunct to our main project, and it's this primary project that ultimately lifts us whining, complaining assholes somewhat above those for whom name-calling and complaining seems to be a favorite sport; those who've got nothing else to leaven their negativity with but more negativity.

Sorry again...I realize I'm getting a little tangential. Back on topic!

FAO Pieter.

Just get me a gig in La man!!

I wanna drink in Bukowski bars!!......

sorry... This thread is fucking amazing!!

LETS GO!!

Stacks and tyranny:

Pardon me if I'm making too much out of your claims to 'not do a lot for the scene,' but I've argued for years that it's all the people who don't make tunes and don't run labels and nights and don't tour as DJs but who do pay to go to clubs, buy the mix CDs, singles, get involved with their ideas and feelings and opinions online (I've always been incensed by this petty notion that you can't criticize if you don't contribute. Bullshit!) and just generally support who are crucial--CRUCIAL--to the livelyhood of any scene or form of music. They are the very lifeblood of a scene or genre. The music writers and professional DJs are nothing without you. We'd be reduced to a pathetic, solipsistic life were it not for the people who provide the support.

And that's so much of what I think the point of this thread is: involving people. Ordinary people. Ordinary music fans as an audience. NOT concentrating an already inward-looking self-referential core of like-minded producers; this is so much of what's soured me on the dominant strains of dnb in the first place. It's become utterly self-referential; music for specialists (barring the fractional journey into the charts with toy-town children's tracks). While I love the fact that many of us here vibe off each others' music, I want to reach out to people, all people, any people...non specialist people. I want to reach people who dig what we do because it's good music first, not out of some fetishistic appreciation for our edits or filters or label artwork or sound system or whatever. The large audience we're all talking about don't get hung up on these things. They just care about whether or not the music moves them.

So, as an aside, let me give a huge shout-out, rrrrrrespect and thank you to everyone who's "not terribly involved," who is then in fact, COMPLETELY involved.

Right...too much good stuff in this thread and I really do have to do some serious work. Adios ragazzi!

QUOTE PIETER: So, as an aside, let me give a huge shout-out, rrrrrrespect and thank you to everyone who's "not terribly involved," who is then in fact, COMPLETELY involved.


i think i love you!!

xx

ive read the whole post and heres a few points from me:

i totally agree with chris about how scenes just develop, its not really something that can be forced. But, i also totally agree with naphtas point, that there needs to be a whole new infrastructure to build on.

Im constantly fascinated by the U.S. label 'Definitive Jux', run by El-P of Company Flow fame. The music they put out at the moment is absolutly wicked, doesnt conform to anything that the hip hop market/majors say is the norm. Yet they sell LOTS of records... and they sell RECORDS too, not cd's, and its not DJ's they are selling to. they have videos on MTV (not that im saying this is the way to go) without having to dumb it down, without having to conform. They market their product without losing any of the integrity any true artist has. Def Jux is truly an inspiration, my younger brother collects their records just as avidly as i used to collect photek's, krust's or any reinforced records.

Why is this??? Can we follow them???

i dont know much about the infrastructure on which the label was built.... but there definatly seems to be a group of like minded, committed people all WORKING TOGETHER.

im HEARING lots of good music (D+B wise), and i mean lots... from all over. The music is there for sure....

ive been doing a lot of thinking on this whole 'split'. i havent come to any conclusions yet, but i'll post ASAP!

[Statto]

i've argued for years that it's all the people who don't make tunes and don't run labels and nights and don't tour as djs but who do pay to go to clubs, buy the mix cds, singles, get involved with their ideas and feelings and opinions online (i've always been incensed by this petty notion that you can't criticize if you don't contribute. bullshit!) and just generally support who are crucial--crucial--to the livelyhood of any scene or form of music. they are the very lifeblood of a scene or genre. the music writers and professional djs are nothing without you. we'd be reduced to a pathetic, solipsistic life were it not for the people who provide the support.

so, as an aside, let me give a huge shout-out, rrrrrrespect and thank you to everyone who's "not terribly involved," who is then in fact, completely involved.

fracture-as i understand it, company flow was independent (releasing singles ontheir own label & fat beats, etc). they released funcrusher plus on rawkus when it was an indy. i think the label had financial issues & then rawkus got sold/bought out. company flow left the label & disbanded-el-p start def jux, mr. len from company flow did cannibal ox (i think) which was produced by el-p. the label has a distribution deal with caroline which is a capitol/emi holding. dunno if that answers it but that's wot i know.

it seems like our music goes thru the shifts every couple years. there are a lot of people who are making explorative quality music for the head and feet, and i'd like to think that this maybe the next shift we're looking for. i think the split is already there in whatever way you look at it. it doesn't need to be "radicalized"-people get sick of the same sounds and then
someone ups the ante and twists it about and the movement shifts. things change-it's inevitable. just keep on it.

again, this totally refreshing to hear people that really care about the direction of the music. i am excited to hear what you producers, known or not, are coming up with. i think we all participate here (and tried or try to in DOA) or in any aspect of the music or scene because we love this shit. small, great, whatever level-we are contribute because we do care, as cheese as it sounds...

Im constantly fascinated by the U.S. label 'Definitive Jux', run by El-P of Company Flow fame. The music they put out at the moment is absolutly wicked, doesnt conform to anything that the hip hop market/majors say is the norm. Yet they sell LOTS of records... and they sell RECORDS too, not cd's, and its not DJ's they are selling to. they have videos on MTV (not that im saying this is the way to go) without having to dumb it down, without having to conform. They market their product without losing any of the integrity any true artist has. Def Jux is truly an inspiration, my younger brother collects their records just as avidly as i used to collect photek's, krust's or any reinforced records.

...Can we follow them???

To this I'd suggest a qualified no. Why? The answer will also answer:

Why is this???

I hope anyway.

To a certain extent, I wonder if the marginal scene we're all kind of talking about (in?) here is not to Dillinja, Andy C, BC and Grooverider as Company Flow are to Eminem and 50 Cent. I'd argue that perhaps we are. If Company Flow and Definitive Jux only represent a marginal aesthetic within the broader context of all hip hop, why do they still sell so many records and command a large and loyal following whose numbers are not dismissed as culty? Easy. Because Eminem and 50 Cent sell more records than god, and the number of hip hop fans of every stripe are legion worldwide, from the banlieus of Paris to the favelas of Rio, Beverly Hills to the Bronx, Kuala Lumpur to Kopenhagen, Cape Town, Sydney, etc., and in all these places, the number of fans are in the tens of thousands, worldwide in the tens of millions. Can drum and bass claim even a tiny fraction of that fan base? Hardly. I've seen Andy C lucky to get 500 people in the door in major American metropolises, and this is AAAHHHNDY CEEE, THE EXECUTIONER. The point is, when there are that many fans, even the marginal groups and subgenres can sell 100,000 records, hell, 500,000, which is chump change to Eminem but absolutely stellar for an indie, not-too-terribly-pop sounding group. In drum and bass, only Goldie, Reprezent and maybe--I'm stretching here--4 Hero have surpassed the 100k mark, and that with CDs, and that over a great length of time.

It's distressing to look at it this way, but we'd all be really comfortable right now if Dillinja was selling 10 million copies of the next Valve album, cause, you see, even ONE PERCENT of that is 100,000.

Not bad eh?

COME ON DILLINJA!!!!!!

WAIT! I'm an idiot (and I can't be bothered to edit the above).

The answer to the first question is actually--self-evidently, based on my blather--yes!

Only given the tiny number of drum and bass fans worldwide relative to the number of hip hop fans, the absolute number of weirdo freaks who love marginal drum and bass will be very small...not enough for us all to go bling, bling, but maybe--maybe--enough for us to afford the occasional rock and a 40 and a holiday in Fresno (err, sorry transAtlantic crew, that damned local color coming out again...see Blue? You need to get over here and then you can go back and translate things like Fresno, coyote, chupacabra, and explain why all foreigners not from south of our border or Spain absolutely, positively mispronounce places like Ojai...wait...I'm digressing...[slap!]; okay, Fresno...err, think like taking a holiday to Blackpool).

Anyway, yeah, you get the point. Hell, I did say it was a qualified no!

Sleepy time down south for my ass. Goodnight, or morning or whatever, as the case might be.

I've seen Andy C lucky to get 500 people in the door in major American metropolises, and this is AAAHHHNDY CEEE, THE EXECUTIONER.

I was always under the impression that dnb makes itself appear bigger than it really is. I find it quite bizarre that there are some people dreaming about chart success while many labels struggle to get their records in the shops.

well....

...and in all these places, the number of fans are in the tens of thousands, worldwide in the tens of millions. Can drum and bass claim even a tiny fraction of that fan base? Hardly.

True. Depressing but true. This is possibly why a shift away from 'Drum and Bass' or at least what that label has begun to denote is needed - there is just too small a maket for DnB in the first place which is cut down even further if you begin to make a specific non-conformist brand of that music.

Btw. Pieter, I wasn't suggesting that people who don't contribute can't criticise or comment that, as you say, is complete bullshit. What I was saying was that it's all too easy for me to sit here and say 'do this' or 'do that' (I'm not talking musically here, I mean in terms of distribution, advertising etc.) when what I am suggesting could end up in a lot of work for people who already give 100% to this music. While I, who also believe 100% in it, am doing jack-shit (or close to it)! I'm hoping to get a production hat on soon anyway so I won't feel so hypocrytical.

Love your album too. top stuff, keep it up.

Fucking great thread. Not one 'it's all good' so far...

Stacks

Once again we still haven't looked at what we would do in terms of essentialy creating this new market we seem to all be connected in. 1 idea might be a "native tounges" sort of thing, you remember De La Soul, Tribe called quest, The Roots etc . I guess this is the same concept as that group Fracture was talking about. Or even like "bugs in the attic", something on that level. I think it would be a start. At least if we can all agree on somthing in terms of where WE are in relation to the rest of D&B then mybe we MIGHT be getting somewhere.....Although I'm still the optomist that thinks that things CAN inprove in time, we just have to persvere in these numbers that we have already......

Oh another thing I was thinking was mailing list swaps etc help each other in that way too

. I guess this is the same concept as that group Fracture was talking about.

go check em out! some truly great music! http://www.definitivejux.net/defsite/index.html

Pieter ----> hehehehe, we all get tired dude!

Once again we still haven't looked at what we would do in terms of essentialy creating this new market we seem to all be connected in. 1 idea might be a "native tounges" sort of thing, you remember De La Soul, Tribe called quest, The Roots etc . I guess this is the same concept as that group Fracture was talking about. Or even like "bugs in the attic", something on that level. I think it would be a start.

Please explain - I don't understand the references...!

At least if we can all agree on somthing in terms of where WE are in relation to the rest of D&B then mybe we MIGHT be getting somewhere.....Although I'm still the optomist that thinks that things CAN inprove in time, we just have to persvere in these numbers that we have already......

Diversity = vitality!
All Styles and None!
Change is good!
Challenge the ears!
Seduce, don't preach!

These, for me, constitute the essential premises of participation in this music. What JUNGLE was always about anyway, as far as I was concerned..... it's just so happened that a lot of people have forgotten.

We need to Lead by Example, Chris. Omly then will people come to us.

Once again we still haven't looked at what we would do in terms of essentialy creating this new market we seem to all be connected in. 1 idea might be a "native tounges" sort of thing, you remember De La Soul, Tribe called quest, The Roots etc . I guess this is the same concept as that group Fracture was talking about. Or even like "bugs in the attic", something on that level. I think it would be a start.

Please explain - I don't understand the references...!

i guess it's about starting up a collective of likeminded souls, a cartel, with a CLEAR RECOGNISABLE VISION... touring together, promo toghether, etc.

although def jux brings all these different artists/styles in hiphop together through 1 label... but i think as pieter said jungle isn't big enough for that to work in practice...

ok...a few things

#1) I run two labels..and I do my own distribution..I don't trust conventional distributers as far as I can throw them...payment schedules and all that nastiness is just retarded to deal with..unless I had (or needed) a P and D deal I would never speak to a conventional DnB distributer ever...

my records go to Japan...they are going to the states..UK...Germany...anywhere that has a market for my music...all the stores are enthusiastic about pushing my records because they have exclusivity and their areas..and they know me..and genuinely want me to do well (because if I do well..they do well)

#2) the concept of the dancefloor is subjective..I'm from Greece...lotsa greek music is in 7/8 (and VERY syncopated with triplets)..and guess what? PEOPLE FUCKIN' DANCE TO IT!! there were some pretty crazy records in 93-95 with crazy drums..I was fuckin' dancing to all of them (until jumpup came out...and I stood there with my arms crossed looking at the DJ with an expression that just screams "is that the best you can do?")

#3) know your market...don't have a label if you don't know your market...if your records aren't selling they aren't getting to the right people that would respond to them...and there is bound to be enough people in this world that could respond to your record enough to purchase it no matter how many units you've made...you just have to make sure your music finds it's way to them..endof story

#4) damn straight there is strength in number..I seek out anyone and everyone that makes music that engages me..and I hope to make music to engage them...we all gotta support eachother..you would be suprised to whos rent I've paid by buying rights to tracks from them for my label..

#5) expand...expand..expand...but don't compremise...

#6) chris inperspective rules.

#7) the truper vol 3 on street beats rules..

#8 ) I'm digressing so I'm gonna go back to making jungle..

#9) respect to everyone in this thread..

j

0=0

oh ya...DefJux is huge over here..

all the suburban whitekids love them...

j

0=0

oh ya...DefJux is huge over here..

all the suburban whitekids love them...

j

0=0

they're pretty huge everywhere at the moment....

yo, i heard a tune of yours... i think chris played it at the last technicality. top stuff. maximum twistage!

they're pretty huge everywhere at the moment....

yo, i heard a tune of yours... i think chris played it at the last technicality. top stuff. maximum twistage!

respect...loving your tunes aswell..

you should send some of your downtempo stuff to defjux or mowax..maybe even*gasp* ninja tunes

then all the suburban whitekids would love you too! haha

*mental note...stop talking down about the suburban whitekids as they are all over the internet* haha

j

0=0

The madman has arrived.....

[Statto]

#2) the concept of the dancefloor is subjective..I'm from Greece...lotsa greek music is in 7/8 (and VERY syncopated with triplets)

where can I hear this?!

#2) the concept of the dancefloor is subjective..I'm from Greece...lotsa greek music is in 7/8 (and VERY syncopated with triplets)

where can I hear this?!

You've heard of the Brazil EP? Well Watch out for the Greek EP on Mash up!!!

You've heard of the Brazil EP? Well Watch out for the Greek EP on Mash up!!!

hahaha...the bside of "The Pain" on Boogie Beat (#32 I think)..

I actually made a few dnb tracks using traditional greek instrumentations (all of them are based from certain regions in greece and the traditional instruments of those regions)..

j

0=0