IS IT JUST ME OR......

All I'm saying is that actively trying to distance yourself from the current DnB establishment,

I disagree. It would be unhealthy not to distance yourself from something you don't want to be part of.

and dictating a creative manifesto which one must follow, isn't a very healthy way of going about it

Agreed.

If you do your own thang - or if you are doing something that is different from the norm but fits in with what other like-minded musicians are doing - and promote it successfully, then a scene may develop naturally away from the current.

The scene is already there, it's just very small and almost invisible behind the big brother dnb. It came naturally from the different developments in dnb. What has to happen now is to step forward.

the whole droppin' science/cert 18 demise has been really disheartening to me.

Me too - for the first time ever, I gave serious consideration to packing in my participation in drum n bass for good. And I don't feel out of the woods yet at all.

the revolution won't be televised on their broadcast. the revolution starts within yourself, rhetorical or no. it's the truth.

I agree. But we shouldn't be waiting around for the TV crews to stroll by.

monkey man touched on a really interesting point with the recent boom. there is this direct marketing to an audience now that wasn't as prevalent as it used to be (at least in my mind). now you see more faces on 12 sleeves-trying to make producers stars and to perpetuate this cult of personality, trying to dictate the picture to you as opposed to what you think it is. making tunes "for the ladies" as some producers put it, is a bit silly and sort of sexist too-insulting, actually.

Indeed. And this raises the question of age and maturity and the importance of a sense of belonging. The 'mainstream' d+b scene will exploit that to the max, feeding the latest Dilly anthem directly into the kids heads via Ali G sketches or whateverthefuck. How do we compete on that level - by laying back and hoping someone notices....?

Otherwise, we have to ask ourselves - can we even compete for the same audience? Or is there any point? And if not, WHO are we pursuing? Passive observers drifting across genres? Mature music-lovers who rarely go out never mind break into a sweat? I think we all still feel some sort of ALLEGIANCE to this music - hence the sense of hurt and betrayal at what the scene has done to it. But could we ever get that same allegiance from a new generation of older converts, or are we looking for te allegiance of the bohemian collector a la Ninja Tunes etc.... where nothing much is at stake...?

say what you want about his music-i actually am a really big fan of his & am listening to his show now-but klute seems to have come out with a unique voice and has demonstrated that you can succeed and fit into a system and, as well, exist outside of it. i love the fact that he doesn't just stick to a sound and that there is a challenging of a notion of what his music is. making tracks that are heavy without using a reece & amens. making a track with melody that would fit into a hard set. he changes logos more as a means of expression, showing shades of grey as well as black and white, and they are a comment about something other that drum & bass. i dig that. enough separate voices doing this will help change the tide.

I strongly disagree here, as I miss his pre 98 output like a lost limb.

this is reminding me of what happened to rock in the late seventies...



...but the circumstances now are different, in ways the same, in ways opposite...very strange



i hope that the musical ideas are flowing as much as the verbal ones right about now... that's at the heart of things, what's the musical response going to be, while were all here we might as well start firing tracks at each other... get the soundclash going...who cares about prospects for now, what about tracks?



...it was kool how i was able to exchange tracks with some of the other producers who had labels too bad they didn't like my stuff enuff to put out...if i passed around a cd with enough good tracks on to make an album, would anyone play it? -i like most of my past musical output, if i sent it around again, would i actually get a response from somebody who wasn't looking for the "next" whatever?


don't get me wrong, i'm a professional...but i'm an artist first, i don't make every single track or recording for sale strictly... i do lots of free and improv gigs, tracks and whatnot... i'm just crazy about music... if anybody really wants to bend the bars, let me in on it



...interesting to hear somebody else thinking about packing it all in...i've thought the same many times...stay tuned and keep your ear to the ground, is my advice... it's in chaotic times when something new is gonna be born, i think

Pressed for time again, but here are a few other thoughts...based on conversations I've had with people in other forms of music who find themselves in similar situations (i.e., indie band friends who are awesome but don't fit neatly in to any commonly identified niche or label sound):

I'm sometimes unsure whether or not "our" sound seen as a collective whole will ever really command a critical mass of devoted fans willing to be *actively* engaged in the process of being fans. What does that mean? Most of the people who are interested in a lot of the music coming from people here are people who are also listening to Morton Feldman and Brian Eno and Sonic Youth and Schubert and Charles Gayle and The Beach Boys and southern Burkina Fassoan platypus web skin drum glottal throat singing field recordings; that is to say, they're listeners who have broad tastes and are interested in music without boundaries...i.e., something akin to your average Wire reader (hopefully sans the pretension). That, or the fan of this music is someone who's been in dnB a long time and for whom the peak was, say, around 96 or so when DnB was encroaching on any number of other forms, all the way up the feeding chain as far as say David Bowie. In other words, it commanded enormous influence. Established artists reworked their entire sound to accomodate it (i.e., Aphex, Bjork, Vibert, etc). Those fans who were queuing up around the block to hear Photek DJ poorly in 97 fell off the wagon and stopped going to clubs and basically stopped caring. At least that's how it seems here. I think Naphta is largely right in describing what has taken the place of that creative, broad-minded crowd.

Here's the rub: those people are still out there and oftentimes, still interested in this music, but many--at least the ones I've talked to--gave up on the genre and it requires an active engagement with them in order to convince them on a one-on-one basis that here is artist X who will re-ignite their interest in the form. As a genre, it's a lost cause to these people. Taken on a case by case basis, there's hope. The problem is, with fans like this, picking and choosing their preferences, there's little chance of a multitude of those kinds of people cohering into something like a 'scene.' Certainly they're not going to waste their time hanging around internet chat boards or lurking around the record store or going to clubs. Many of them are too busy...and NONE OF THEM BUY VINYL. They buy CDs. Quietly, without fanfare. They don't post reviews online; on Amazon, they don't send the artists emails; they may even think artist X's album is the greatest thing in decades, but we'll never know that and we'll never know who they are or where they are and even how many actually bought the album.

So...what's my point? I'm not sure. I do know that vinyl is not the solution at all. Clearly, we're losing the DJ market, and I'm arguing that our market is the CD buying audience, so I think that's the direction it must go. You, I, us....WE believe and know that we're making music that IS dancefloor oriented, but the marketplace of DJs with whom we are reflexively associated is voting with its pocketbook and they've judged us wanting in that department. That means that--despite what we believe--we ARE in fact "listening" artists; "chill" artists; "leftfield, abstract, living room, whatever fucked up epithet you care to employ" artists." Sucks, but the market has spoken and it's never wrong (if only because it accurately reflects the collective desire of a given population). We have to adapt, it won't come around to us.

So, CDs, and a diminished expectation of EVER receiving the feedback and comfort of a clearly identifiable 'scene' in which to work.

And I'll shut up now. Sorry for the length. Please someone dismantle my argument, cuz itz full ov holes an shit.

Errr...wait. My idiocy there reminds me: anyone remember Psychic Warriors ov Gaia? What happened to them?

Why not? We need our own infrastructure in order to ecape reliance on a scene that doesn't want us involved!

from what i've seen so far, this isn't likely to be the case for me (though i'm ready to accept it anyways, if it happens.) hell, given these distribution problems some of the smaller labels are having, it's more likely that i'll be exposed to the dancefloor audience before i will the 'listening' audience!

i think this explains our differences in approach - i have some cause to be optimistic about trying to do my thing within the pre-existing infrastructure.

yeah, a great deal of clubgoers are consuming-they're not going to go out & buy vinyl unless they can't live without a copy of LK (which they now can find on cd). but you have to think-djs and producers are a niche. we're love what we do and we put our energy into this, moreso that your average bear, er, person. so you can't expect yogi punter to drop what he's doing and devote himself to this-he should, but most people don't think like that; most people don't liken themselves to consumers either when we all are. it seems like a zero-sum game but you're working for that one in a hundred who does give a fuck and discerns, who is like you or maybe isn't but is still willing to listen. but i agree with pieter.

i'm a bit of the populist myself-i like the mash up and i play just about everything within the context of my standards of cohesiveness. I blindly go into a record store & buy stuff, beat unheard, and see what i can do with it when i get home. that's fun for me because it's a challenge on a few levels. i liken myself as a music lover first: i like gang of four as much as j-live as much as tony allen. pop music is cool too-it has a place. now i say this from the perspective of a music lover, but what if we had more djs that did have a willingness to play music that ran across the board? forget promotion of your label, promotion of your tunes, promotion of a repetitive style in a set, promotion of the big tunes. how many times have i just walked out on a set because the dj plays 12 shades of the same tune? what the hell happened to making a VIBE? what happened to having fun? do djs have a handle on this? i just think you have to cultivate it: people will never come to you-you have to goto them.

maybe it's an issue of asking where the love is for what you do. native tongues banded together to illustrate that they could make quality, consious music that was enjoyable without being dumb or over high-minded (tall order, i know). it can be done. producers don't have to make the most complicated, alternative, cutting edge shit. just move me. make a vibe-be creative. challenge yourself because complacency kills what you do.

naphta-i know what you mean about klute being more challenging in earlier years. but he still tries to challenge himself and other listeners, putting out stuff that's dancefloor as well as more personal beats. and even when he puts out a record now it still doesn't sound like other dancefloor shit that's out there. but we prolly have differing tastes which is all good imo :ranton

NONE OF THEM BUY VINYL. They buy CDs.

That's not completely right. They buy vinyl, but they don't buy 12" singles. It's not the medium but the format that doesn't work with these people. I know this because I'm one of them As a non-DJ I don't need a loud-as-fuck 45rpm 12" with only 2 tunes (with 30% beatmatching space ).

I think that these people would go to clubs and parties, just like they go to a Sonic Youth concert. They queued up for Photek in 97, and that could happen again. But they heard the music first, and not on a 12" but on Modus Operandi. So it wouldn't be a bad idea to step out of the club with one foot and address the non-DJ crowd with formats that suit them better. Maybe this could lead to more artistic freedom as well.

NONE OF THEM BUY VINYL. They buy CDs.

That's not completely right. They buy vinyl, but they don't buy 12" singles. It's not the medium but the format that doesn't work with these people.

Absolutely right. I should have been more accurate: what I meant was what you said; the 12 inch single format. Thanks!

That said (Captain Obvious entering the hizhouse), CD sales overwhelmingly surpass vinyl sales, so in the larger sense, my point stands I think. Maybe I should restate it in this more inclusive way: this ("our") audience that I'm talking about buys CDs and (sometimes) LP formatted vinyl, not 12 inch dance singles.

NONE OF THEM BUY VINYL. They buy CDs.

I think that these people would go to clubs and parties, just like they go to a Sonic Youth concert. They queued up for Photek in 97, and that could happen again.

Operative word being "would," dependent on an "if." That's if there were a club night on offer that holds out the promise of those nights they remember back in 97 or whenever; if they had some kind of reasonably sound expectation that this given night would be free of the childish monotony of the current, dominant scene. How would they be convinced though that this night is the real deal? You can hardly attach the scene's leading names to the night as most of them have become what 'we' are seeing as the problem, not the solution. A night in LA (where I am) that had many of us here on the bill (and some others who aren't here but whose music we appreciate, i.e., Dev, Danny Breaks, Polar, etc.) just isn't going to create any serious hype. Not now. The question is, how to get to a point where a night with us WILL draw a crowd around the block? Maybe a small part of that is--as you and I agree--finding a way to start selling listener-friendly full-length albums and compilations to these people and get them excited about the music and the artists, NOT about the dnb scene as a whole. As long as this fantasy night is viewed from the outside as a dnb night, I don't think we'll ever get these people back in the door.

I guess this supports Naphta's idea of a schism. Whether or not that schism should be organized around manifestos and missions or whether or not it should just shamble along its own organic path is part of what we are--and should be--talking about here. I have few answers.

NONE OF THEM BUY VINYL. They buy CDs.

But they heard the music first, and not on a 12" but on Modus Operandi. So it wouldn't be a bad idea to step out of the club with one foot and address the non-DJ crowd with formats that suit them better. Maybe this could lead to more artistic freedom as well.

Exactly!

Nuffo'me. Happy weekend.

So, CDs, and a diminished expectation of EVER receiving the feedback and comfort of a clearly identifiable 'scene' in which to work.

And I'll shut up now. Sorry for the length. Please someone dismantle my argument, cuz itz full ov holes an shit.

I wish I could dismantle your argument Pieter, but I'm afraid you're making far too much sense.

It seems to be shaping up pretty much like this:

(a) keep trying to get the attention of the scene, be at its mercy, whims and fashions, and occasionally get a strike in (Breakage etc.) but also run the risk of having to overhaul your sound to fit in somewhere down the line (Total Science, Alpha Omega, Klute).......... or else,

(b) use the form of drum n bass as a base around which to make album-based music that looks above and beyond the confines (and unfortunately, the cohesion, belonging and excitement) of scene, dancefloor, and DJ tool a la Pieter himself, maybe Amon Tobin etc.

Wow. It actually all seems really simple now.

The question is, how to get to a point where a night with us WILL draw a crowd around the block? Maybe a small part of that is--as you and I agree--finding a way to start selling listener-friendly full-length albums and compilations to these people and get them excited about the music and the artists, NOT about the dnb scene as a whole. As long as this fantasy night is viewed from the outside as a dnb night, I don't think we'll ever get these people back in the door.

Perhaps we all need to be giving the trad concept of DJing the old heave-ho. Paradox's live PA may be pretty raw and underdeveloped in places, but I think he's absolutely on the right track - make your own music the output and give people something different by way of a performance - even something to look at..... We all know and have a fond place in our hearts for the trance-dance revelation that the DJ/dancefloor format constituted when it first came around 10 or more years ago, but it's too industrialised now - too boxed in. I know myself what I can do with a bunch of excellent d+b records, a dancefloor and an open-minded crowd who want to dance, but I'm geting to a stage where I've no new records left to play, and the cost of cutting the plates of all the unreleased good shit is impossibly prohibitive for me...

I haven't seen the SB cru do their stuff live either, but the very concept of it has always interested me, and with the decline of record sales, the collapse of the superclub machine, and the general malaise more apparent in clubland every week, it's clear that Blue and co. have been onto something important for a while now - i.e. broaden the musical horizons and get d+b to interact with other styles of music and with other formats of presentation...

Really sharpen up the live PA thing all round and people might have reason to queue round the block - better than seeing producers follow the tired route of getting behind the decks; after all, we all know that most of them can't mix for shit anyway - which usually ends up being one of the main reasons why they start making their music more dumbed down and formulaic - to fit into the simplistic DJ machine better (and not to disrupt the dancefloor's increasingly conservative notion of what the music SHOULD BE).

Eh? More thoughts, people...

i think the idea of not spinning but rather performing is a pretty cool idea. you guys don't make dj tools per se and are focused on conceptualized ideas, so that would make sense. it also lends itself to the idea of the album, whether it is on vinyl or cd. but it seems to me logically that venues and avenues for this mindset already exist. squarepusher has merged styles and culls from the D&B vernacular-though it's probably more of a critcism of the style, much like that of aphex twin. but regardless, the theory is for the theorists and musicians to figure out, the sound can comfortable settle and grow for the listener between current D&B and full on experimantation and fusion.

it justs make me sad to think that some of the more talented producers would want to take the ball from the court and not play. i know a lot of people who do have their feet in both worlds and know that schooled producers have a big place in their minds. it comfortably coexists in my mind, but evidently it seems some think this isn't the norm.

i like the idea that streetbeats runs a nite-this invites people from the "mainstream" into a different realm and maybe makes them realize there are other sounds out there. i don't know how successful it's been-dunno if the djs bring something different to the table when they come-but it seems to be continuing, and at least having the venue to play the music out & offer different sounds is a positive.

A night in LA (where I am) that had many of us here on the bill (and some others who aren't here but whose music we appreciate, i.e., Dev, Danny Breaks, Polar, etc.) just isn't going to create any serious hype. Not now.

So let's start slow. I don't think we need hype and a big bang, but steady and healthy growing on a foundation of good music.

As long as this fantasy night is viewed from the outside as a dnb night, I don't think we'll ever get these people back in the door. I guess this supports Naphta's idea of a schism.

Yep, unfortunately the banner dnb is spoiled. It's a bit absurd, because names and labels shouldn't mean anything, but it wouldn't hurt if parties and records would be filed under a different name than dnb. Neo-Jungle?

but it seems to me logically that venues and avenues for this mindset already exist. squarepusher has merged styles and culls from the D&B vernacular-though it's probably more of a critcism of the style, much like that of aphex twin.

I think we could learn from IDM/Electronica. They have both music for listeners and the club, artist albums, 12"s, live performances and DJs.

this invites people from the "mainstream" into a different realm and maybe makes them realize there are other sounds out there.

It interests me what mainstream artists think about this. Do they believe in the dnb they play and produce, or do they only play it for the kids and secretely want some more challenging music?

I absolutely agree that we probably need to market this music differently and crossover to CDs and live performances. Like others have said, to the general population, the DnB name has been tarnished.

I have been making tracks recently where I loathe the idea of placing "bookend," mixable intros and outros on them. I felt the song just doesn't call for it, but to be accepted as a track that would be played out it needs to have it. Maybe these tracks shouldn't be played out and should be geared towards the listening audience? The traditional DnB structure has really begun to bore me. I can't finish this one track because I really don't want to put the traditiional intro and outro on it. Would DnB labels be into it if I sent them demo tracks that weren't setup like standard mixable tracks?

Oh and I just want to say it's nice to see Pieter on here participating in this discussion. I am a fan and applaud your forward thinking tracks that are pushing the boundaries we are talking about here. The same goes for Naphta and the SB crew too!

Things to do:

(1) Promote a split from 'drum n bass', which is doomed to shitness for ever more........ (etc)
.

this is one of the best posts ive ever read.



my sentiments exaclty.

fortunatly over here in australia we dont suffer from the commercialisation and marketing of dnb as you suffer in the uk and us i guess. meaning we as listeners are left to choose what we listen to, not being directed by overt, covert and subliminal and superliminal advertising.

sure the scene over here lacks tours from the big internationals. but hey we have our own djs who play their own styles, our own producers who are not guided by whatsmaking the most money.

over here trance is the most followed dance music scene, then possibly followed by a dedicated bunch of psy-trance heads. the thing i love about psytrance is that the biggest tunes seem to be made by the local producers! sure they are a bunch of hippies but their scene works because of their lack of market oriented minds. the nature of psy will eventually go the way of drum and bass as more people follow it and some marketing guru discovers how to make a mint from out-door doofs.

the struggle to remain underground is never ending and the shear weight of demand will continue to threaten our ability to keep it about the music and not about the money.

sure its a good thing that people can make lots of money from doing something they love, but they forget the reason they got into it in the first place.

just some thoughts.


goku.

just read the rest of the thread....

quite profound. im astonished.

squarepusher has merged styles and culls from the D&B vernacular-though it's probably more of a critcism of the style, much like that of aphex twin.

Yeah - a criticism, agreed. And personally, I have little interest in or even time for post-modern, ironic piss-takes of the vitalism of Jungle for the disinterested observer. Music with no meaning = bloodless music.

I think we could learn from IDM/Electronica. They have both music for listeners and the club, artist albums, 12"s, live performances and DJs.

Yes and no. An electronica DJ/producer friend of mine recently lamented to me just how dispiriting this lack of community/scene can be in IDM - primarily for 2 reasons:

(1) musically, you can do ANYTHING i.e. scratch yr nails on a blackboard and add some feedback and bob's yer uncle. Great, but how USEFUL is that? Without the definition, without the boundaries of something to even strain or rail against, then can I posit the possibly controversial notion that we are dealing with a music that is almost TOO democratic? i.e. ANYONE can do it and it can sound like ANYTHING?

(2) no real TARGET ENVIRONMENT i.e. no 'dancefloor'/'wherever' - therefore no reaosn for poeople to go out to share the music and to participate in it. Hence you got a scene/community of people locked away in their bedrooms - the dispassionate observers, playing (like Coldcut advocated) at music as a game, or experimenting with the programs that make sound (like Autechre). No reason to ever break into a sweat - in fact, there still appears to be a certain taboo on doing just that within this 'scene' - the old bohemian aversion to participation.. anways, Simone de Reynoldo discusses that much better than I ever can...

this invites people from the "mainstream" into a different realm and maybe makes them realize there are other sounds out there..... It interests me what mainstream artists think about this. Do they believe in the dnb they play and produce, or do they only play it for the kids and secretely want some more challenging music?

I think some of the big d+b DJs probably do yearn a little for the days when they had more freedom and when the music was more inventive and threw surprises their way and even challenged them more... I've certainly got that buzz off one or two we've had over before, and read one or two things to that effect elsewhere.

Nonetheless, at the end of the day, it's business as usual. The collective spirit of adventure that fuelled hardcore/jungle for the first few years and produced such amazing music appeared to galvanise everybody - now the collective has allowed a narrow concept of what the music actually IS to take hold, and for a limiting set of rules to become established to govern the music. With this in place, we now witness only the downside of the scene - the 'will to mediocrity' that has a stranglehold on the collective imagination of the scene and forces it to dumb down. Humans are creatures of habit, and they also have very short memories. Plus, these guys live in a world of cut-throat business where most of what is siad to them is said simply to please. If you're Dilinja and EVERYONE in your little scene tells you you're an unqualified genius a thousand times, what's to stop you developing P Diddy syndrome and actually believing that you can do no wrong?

what does this mean about the future of Streetbeats and Bassbin sub-labels and so on? i really think it'd be a great shame for such good music to never be released, or for the labels to cut themselves short. Offshore and Inperspective seem to be doing ok with putting out vinyl ... and yet they're able to stay true to jungle cut-up aesthetics without adopting the mainstream dnb sonic vocabulary (grrr grrr, bwaaaaaaaah etc). i think you guys make criminally overlooked music, and of course you'll release it however you feel is best, but maybe it's a bit premature to pack in the DJ format right now, especially as the state of the music is the best it's been in years most ways you look at it???

squarepusher has merged styles and culls from the D&B vernacular-though it's probably more of a critcism of the style, much like that of aphex twin.

Yeah - a criticism, agreed. And personally, I have little interest in or even time for post-modern, ironic piss-takes of the vitalism of Jungle for the disinterested observer. Music with no meaning = bloodless music.

this invites people from the "mainstream" into a different realm and maybe makes them realize there are other sounds out there..... It interests me what mainstream artists think about this. Do they believe in the dnb they play and produce, or do they only play it for the kids and secretely want some more challenging music?

I think some of the big d+b DJs probably do yearn a little for the days when they had more freedom and when the music was more inventive and threw surprises their way and even challenged them more... I've certainly got that buzz off one or two we've had over before, and read one or two things to that effect elsewhere.

Nonetheless, at the end of the day, it's business as usual. The collective spirit of adventure that fuelled hardcore/jungle for the first few years and produced such amazing music appeared to galvanise everybody - now the collective has allowed a narrow concept of what the music actually IS to take hold, and for a limiting set of rules to become established to govern the music. With this in place, we now witness only the downside of the scene - the 'will to mediocrity' that has a stranglehold on the collective imagination of the scene and forces it to dumb down. Humans are creatures of habit, and they also have very short memories. Plus, these guys live in a world of cut-throat business where most of what is siad to them is said simply to please. If you're Dilinja and EVERYONE in your little scene tells you you're an unqualified genius a thousand times, what's to stop you developing P Diddy syndrome and actually believing that you can do no wrong?

here's what i want to know-where is the line drawn musically? perhaps sqarepusher is the extreme end of the spectrum. perhaps someone like justice? maybe ressurrecting something like partisan records? where does one specifically say, " this is not acceptable to use an amen or a reece in any context ." does the limit reside in personal challenge, that is, going into a context that is foreign to you? i miss partisan-they did quite a bit of positive, listenable, and genre-defying beats. maybe we need something like this again.

i think it's funny you mentioned p diddy & dillinja. i made a comparison between the two the other day but not as a dis. i just think it's more his bag-he is a maverick but he's been totally uncreative. but it is a business-productivity in music (not mutually exclusive with creativity) means sales, name recognition, staying in business so to speak. that goes back to the idea of the music industry-it's hard to be innovative when you're banging out tunes (stop and smell the roses). mashing up the floor does not equate to quality.

what does this mean about the future of Streetbeats and Bassbin sub-labels and so on? .........maybe it's a bit premature to pack in the DJ format right now, especially as the state of the music is the best it's been in years most ways you look at it???

Agreed, there is far more good music waiting in the wings than there has been in a long time, but that's exactly the reason that I issue a call for a split, or some definitive gesture - cos that's what's needed.

As for the future of Bassbin sub-labels, to be honest, I'm not very positive about them. It's hard enough keeping one label afloat putting out 12" vinyl - particularly because you're at the mercy of the distribution company - waiting on cash for records sold to fund putting out the next in line. Ideally, you try and get get distribution with a few dist. companies in order to escape relying on one alone - without that (as I'm sure Blue will tell you) you're a bit fucked! I dunno about SB, but we'll need to be able to do that with the BB sub-labels before we can afford to take the risk of putting out music that the majority of the 'drum n bass' market doesn't even recognise as drum n bass (Sonar Circle, Breakage, Senses etc.).

I'm sure there will always be a Bassbin, but as to the rest, I cannot say at the moment... unfortunately...

here's what i want to know-where is the line drawn musically? perhaps sqarepusher is the extreme end of the spectrum. perhaps someone like justice? maybe ressurrecting something like partisan records? where does one specifically say, " this is not acceptable to use an amen or a reece in any context ." does the limit reside in personal challenge, that is, going into a context that is foreign to you? i miss partisan-they did quite a bit of positive, listenable, and genre-defying beats. maybe we need something like this again.

O dear o dear!!! I'm really not making myself clear at all at all....

I like Amens! I like Reeces! I like lots of the simplest most basic shit that excites in this music (even 2-step was good, for a while, back in the No-U-Turn era). However, what I don't like is any of the above all the fucking time cos it's gets like a kid beating out the same notes on a piano over and over and over.. I'd rule NOTHING out... after that, it's just a matter of personal taste as to whether or not someone is abusing the format by just serving up sameness.

Musically speaking, I think that what Jungle has over drum n bass is that Jungle doesn't have to operate in straight lines - I like the fragmentation, the stop-start aesthetic. If I heard more d+b like that - firing me up instead of trying to trance me out or beat me into submission, then I'd be happy with the music's overall vibe!

Partisan was a great label - I didn't like all of it's output, but they had a vintage Metalheadz-style commitment to diversity and they adhered to that aspiration. If we had 10 labels like Partisan, we'd be laughing!

As for Squarepusher - I've heard some great stuff by him, but his music generally makes me want to stop moving and watch the architecture rather than participate on a visceral level... hence his general unsuitability for the dancefloor-oriented mix IMO.... but I'd be more than willing to be proved wrong if a DJ pulled it off convincingly enuff for me...!

i think it's funny you mentioned p diddy & dillinja....... it's hard to be innovative when you're banging out tunes.

that's another thing that worries me about the 12" vinyl market - good producers getting sucked into feeding this all-consuming machine. I mean, Digital used to be one of my favourite producers - and even when he was lashing out the retro rave stab-athons, he was still capable of issuing tunes like Gateman or Watch It. But now - how knackered must he be? How caught in a formula of his own making - knowing what works and yet simultaneously trying to get away from it? Have you heard any of his new 'latin / r n b' stuff?! Very confusing - doesn't sound comfortable with it at all, yet from his point of view, can he stay with the rave revivalist / dubmaster thing forever...? Tunes aren't meant to have any staying power these days as BC wil tell you - thus they have to keep throwing out new ones cos the sceneists are too embarrassed to be caught playing tunes more than 2 months old. Yet I play old shit ALL the time - half the fun is all about finding good mixes of the old and the new so that the styles and fashions are genuinely mixed up...!

Seanie, I hear you on the Partisan thing, they are one of many labels that helped me make the decision to try again with Inperspective. I tell you what this disscussion is Interesting and mybe I'm a "glass half full" type of guy, but Naptha and anyone else thinking of packing it in, really shouldn't. I believe that things WILL change.....

I'm gonna tell you all a story right, I'm not ashamed to say it but while trying to get things going again and in Miami. I got REALLY upset one nite while with Equinox and Q and I started Balling my fucking eyes out with fustration with not getting people to listen to what we had to offer.....now look....not saying I've made it yet but it's a whole lot better than where I was then, at LEAST poeple are getting their ears pricked up by us now.....

V. interesting thread...its taken me over an hour to read through it all.


Anyway....i like what naphta is saying here about creating a collective identity for the style of music that more and more people are starting to produce, and more and more people are starting to appreciate.

I can see where some of you are coming from with the notion of pigeon-holing what you are doing and how this is a negative thing....but i'd look at creating a reference point for people or a general idea of what sort of philosophy is behind the music you are doing as a positive and constructive thing.....

A number of people have said that the target audience for more "alternative" jungle music has changed and that you can't appeal to the mass "brock out raver kru" and it is a reasonable enough point, but you have to remember that these people don't have a point of reference to see where the music is coming from.

I think i can safely say that the people that are producing music these days that has a grander idea and ethos behind than to just "rock the floor" have a fairly wide musical base from which the draw influence from....whereas you're average joe punter nowadays knows only drum and bass in its more modern guise....straight for the floor heavy basslines and straight up beats.

I think that in creating a forum or a collective, where people who look for emotion, creativity and new ideas in music would be a very positive thing, and instead of focussing on whats WRONG with everything, focussing on whats RIGHT with what you are doing will create a more positive atmosphere within which people can develop their ideas and sounds.

A more inclusive approach to creating a new music is what is needed instead of this us vs them attitude that prevails.....by focusing on producing music that you love, by showcasing what your own ideas on what direction your music should take and by looking at it in a positive light will only encourage others to become involved.

To be honest, im slightly intimidated by the millitant attitudes that are sometimes expressed by both sides of this debate which is why i think that naphta's idea of an inclusive positive way of progressing things can only be good and im sure there are a lot of other people out there who like both the more emotionally satisfying music that the likes of SB, inperspective etc. are putting out and the straight up nod your head, dance and forget about everything else stuff that the more mainstream heads are doing would agree with me (i hope)

I've been pottering away over the last few months trying to produce music myself and have taken a decision based on my experiences so far to focus more time and effort into it.....and i for one intend to (like naphta is doing) try and create something more than just unemotional uncreative music.....but i also want to produce straight forward party music......and not just jungle or drum and bass....

Im rambling all over the place now....so i'll get back to what i was saying originally.

I think everything needs a reference point or context that can allow people to relate to where something is coming from.....without a basic understanding of timing or rythm, how can you understand a beat? Without a basic understanding of where the new wave of producers are coming from how can you expect the general public to understand their music?

For me a reference point is just that....never a limiting factor or a boundry.



Come up with a collective name and i'll make ye a website.....might be a good start.

brilliant thread....respect to breakin' inperspective streetbeats et al.....keep pushing things forward...there will be a turnaround if nights like technacality, refuge and nu killa kru are anything to go by.