IS IT JUST ME OR......

i'd imagine so.... how many labels have had total science do them a tune for one of their early releases? its almost a cliché isnt it?

errrr... you guys nothing idealistic or far out about platforms for non danceable music.... if autechre can play live and ppl and can pay into a club to stand around listening to richard d james mixing sandpaper [as he has on at least on occasion] then there are going to be people who will pay money to hear pieter k being a bit "difficult" dont forget that the avant garde crowds pride themselves on their dedication to seeking out these sounds and witnessing them and if you could promote yourself in their media you would get a polite interested audience who may not dance or even relate to you as a junglist but would take your music at face value...

Yeah, but I took it that when Pieter talked about wanting to remain connected to this d+b / alt. d+b scene, he meant that he wanted to retain the ability to hit the 'dancefloor' with his far-out stuff...

So, is there (for instance) much of a crossover between the people who go to dance like mad to Jeff Mills and the people who go to stand around and watch Autechre...? I wonder... in my experience, there isn't much of a crossover at all - indeed, techno is probably even more stratified and fragmented than drum n bass. Of course, being much BIGGER probabaly helps!)

Anyway, is that contested area - the dancefloor - not what this debate is really all about? Cos for 'dancefloor', I usually read 'scene' and/or 'social function'. Lose all these constraints, and yes - you can indeed experiment endlessly in complete freedom!

if and when an artist who's made a name for themselves 'outside of the leftfield' releases on a smaller label, does it make for a marked difference in the distributor's receptiveness to that record, or in the sales of that record?

I dunno - all I know is that when we went looking for distribution for a Sonar Circle 12" we were advised to "get a Total Science remix" in there and then maybe we could do bizness!

* Just saw your post there Tyranny. Yes, it is a bit rich!

Naphta,

You have failed to even touch upon the fact that dance music sales of singles were down 80% last year in the US alone!!!

The record industry as we know it is fucked. Kids are downloading mp3s and burning them to CD and playing them on their CDJs.

That is a big part in these PRE-SALES that you speak of, as buyer for BBS, I pay very close attention to what will sell and what won't sell. There are loads of 'dancefloor' tunes/labels that sell less than Offshore.

It is becoming harder and harder to sell records in general, not just 'leftfield' stuff.

Right and wrong, for nearly 3 months I included this one Bjork Rmx in nearly every set I played. Was it a DnB Rmx you ask...NO! It was about 85-88 bpm however and mixed perfectly at half time.

Is this bold or lame? To include IDM/Electronica tracks into a "DnB" set?

In nearly every set that I played it, I had more ppl come up to me and ask me solely about that track!

Not lame at all - great stuff if you can pull it off!

But that wasn't really what I was talking about... I was talking about playing straight-up party music side-by-side with the stuff that is normally sidelined as 'experimental'/'non-dancefloor'.

but scene and social function are elastic concepts at best... you go to the wexford opera festival and you meet people who go there every year, know each other, get surprisingly cliquey for upper middle class middle aged irish types [not to mention surprisingly shit faced] meet up with each pther occasionally for the first time in a year, and all hang out in the lobby during the intermission checking each others fancy threads out and breathlessly describing the soprano in the lobby... thats my definition of scene and social function. experimental electronica has a crowd that differs from that opera crowd in far less significant than a trad jump up drum and bass crowd... freedom to experiment then clearly need not imply loss of a social significance for your music to be heard in....

Naphta,
It is becoming harder and harder to sell records in general, not just 'leftfield' stuff.

Why?

Naphta,
It is becoming harder and harder to sell records in general, not just 'leftfield' stuff.

Why?

For the very reasons I stated about MP3s and CDJs.

How many ppl do you know with CDJs or running Traktor on their laptop that they bring to gigs with them? There are lots here! For instance, I know ppl that are playing entire sets from CDJ. Vinyl is rapidly becoming obsolete. In fact, I was at a weekly last night in NYC where a staple DJ in the NYC DnB scene played a released tune off of CD and said "I only liked one tune off of the EP, I'm not going to buy it, I will just download it then burn it and play it on a CDJ." Not to mention the club's set up included 2x Tech 12s and 2x CDJ1000s. How long until it is 1x Tech 12 and 2x CDJs???

Billboard did an article this year and in it, it stated that US dance single sales were down 80%.

Records aren't selling as well as they used to, bottom line.

freedom to experiment then clearly need not imply loss of a social significance for your music to be heard in....

I wonder how much actual 'experimentation' would be going on at a festival like that, though? Lots of classic works slightly revised, maybe. I imagine that, as in Classical music, Opera keeps it's experiments at arm's length, letting them out of the box only occasionally in order to throw off criticisms that it's all a bit too dust-covered to be vital or relevant... Maybe I'm wrong here - anyone know anything about opera..?!

Nonetheless, I see your point alright, but most of these scenes need to be grounded in some essentials simply in order to be recognisable, and the primary essential that runs through nearly all but the most fringe of drum n bass / jungle music IMO, is that it is a form of dance music. It was born in that context, developed to feed that context, and is now (more tan ever and to its detriment) judged in relaiton to that context.

Now of course as I've pointed out, I think it's most exciting moments can often be when it pushes insolently against the restraining walls of that very function, but when you allow it to simply break down those walls and march on through, then we're looking at a re-definition of the context, aren't we? i.e. on a simple level - people stop physically interacting and start looking around for something to look at, whereas previously, the focus was on the rhythm, on the sound, and on its effect on the communal body of the dancefloor...

To sum up, I believe that the context of the dancefloor can and should ideally provide those essential limiters - within which the kind of creative process that attracts me the most can take place i.e. the seduction of those who 'just came to dance'. Whereas, there aren't too many of those passing types turning up for IDM gigs or art installations, or opera, for that matter...

Records aren't selling as well as they used to, bottom line.

So..... do we need to all look into doing our own exclusive CD mix PAs as an alternative to DJing with other people's music?!

Or do you have any suggestions as to how this phenonemon should be dealt with?

For the very reasons I stated about MP3s and CDJs.

How many ppl do you know with CDJs or running Traktor on their laptop that they bring to gigs with them? There are lots here! For instance, I know ppl that are playing entire sets from CDJ. Vinyl is rapidly becoming obsolete. In fact, I was at a weekly last night in NYC where a staple DJ in the NYC DnB scene played a released tune off of CD and said "I only liked one tune off of the EP, I'm not going to buy it, I will just download it then burn it and play it on a CDJ." Not to mention the club's set up included 2x Tech 12s and 2x CDJ1000s. How long until it is 1x Tech 12 and 2x CDJs???

Billboard did an article this year and in it, it stated that US dance single sales were down 80%.

Records aren't selling as well as they used to, bottom line.

this is distinctly depressing.

Thought I'd add my 2 cents after being urged to share my views by compadre Inperspective and Naphta. Personally, I think the whole "segregating ourselves from drum & bass" is cutting off your nose to spite your face - so to speak. This, for me anyway, is definitely not a solution.

Equinox once said something that has always stuck with me, he simply said "Drum & Bass - means D R U M A N D B A S S", so why veer off the path? After all, we all are drum & bass artists working with drum & bass labels right? I personally think, that the balance will change given time, exposure and a helping hand along the way.

Peace to all the believers.

finally, after hours and hours of reading, i came to the end of this thread (so far, cos im sure it'll keep growing like mad)......

im not sure that separating leftfield dnb from the norm is a good thing.
we all come from the same kinda roots back in the 90s, thats how i see it.
everyone takes his own views and influences into dnb, be he producer/dj or what not. thats what always made dnb so great.

recently (say, especially since 2000) it became so formulaic, that even ppl like Digital and Photek dont really move me anymore, save a tune now and then.

what i do think are good points mentioned so far in this thread are

1) pushing this sound, in your own circle, in your own scene.
i know im doing this, im part of a crew here in the Netherlands, and im hte only one playing this stuff. i dont care what other djs are on a night with me, i played breaks in front of Aphrodite, i will play stuff again 16th of may in front of a technoid dj.

2) operating under one name/flag as suggested.
there are so many differences, even in this little tiny cozy subgenre, as already pointed out, that you might not want this TERM to become a GENRE/SCENE name. i would more like to see such a thing as a trademark, some kind of qualitystamp you can put on a certain product (yeah im talking ISO-intelli certification of these labels people )

would be great to have this NAME/LOGO on all things from the parties involved starting from here on (after some census is agreed on on WHAT it should be)

3) CDs
CDs are always selling more than vinyl, i agree. and it would help much to get a cover cd on something like Knowledge, with some labels contributing on it.

4) shared advertising
great thing imho, you see other lables/sublabels do it too.

im getting woozy now, ill be staying tuned in and trying to contribute as best as i can.

thanks to Naphta for hauling me in, and ASC for the general support :P
i know who my daddies are LOL

PS : Dice we should really try to work together, since we're geographically not that far away from eachother.

Naphta, I think I may have overstated my case. To me, even this very outre form of dnb I'm talking about is in fact still drum and bass and it finds its formality as such in the rhythms and juxtapositions of elements contained therein, and in the friction that exists at the margins of the form because it's still working WITHIN the form; elements which are wholly derived from drum and bass in its original incarnation as dance music. I know it sounds like what I'm talking about isn't that, but it is. I think what it comes down to is that on the continuum of rhythmic elasticity which on one end is lockstep two-step and on the other, Sunny Murray completely free, abstract sound fields of percussive haze, most of what I'm talking about still resides in the middle, it's just that to an audience born and bred on two step, even slight deviations from it seem already less accessible. I think it's safe to say that within electronic music, a lot of people here either cut our teeth on hardcore/jungle and its rhythmic freedom or quickly came to appreciate it, so for us, that 'slight deviation' is terribly conservative whereas to a Konflict fan it's already adventurous. If I was sounding too absolutist I apologize, as I'm hardly that. And if it sounds like I'm reducing this down to a simple distinction of drum patterns, well, there's a lot more to it than that.

I kind of wish Oktal was around for this discussion as I think he--better than anyone--articulated the perfect idea of what dancefloor drum and bass is or can be. To me, just about everything ever mentioned here is dancefloor; to ME, "One of Them" IS dancefloor. It works. Yes, it's not blow your brians out E-tardation melt with the universe in jungalistic frenzy, but it's not unfunky, nor is it a static field of sculptural sound. It moves, it breathes, it has funk, swing, all those things that derive from a music informed of physicality. In other words, you can sweat to it.

Shit...way too busy to write more...then again, surely I must be getting tiresome.

Pieter, get Damon on here! I'm sure this would be serious eye candy to the man.

It brings a tear to me eye!!!<sniff>

shut up you lil' girl..

yeah. I heard it's being smashed on plate.

that was the funniest thing I've ever read on any msg board EVER!

0=0 hard at work in the studio:

hey cakes? don't I own you?

hahaha...the bside of "The Pain" on Boogie Beat (#32 I think)..

THE RETURN OF ZOBRA!!!!~!!!!!!()!)!)
oh god, what a bizarre track. what doesn't it sample!

respect to you for knowing the score!!! and respect to Kid Andy and Johnny L (just not for that short period they were doing remixes for the Spice Girls)

How many ppl do you know with CDJs or running Traktor on their laptop that they bring to gigs with them? There are lots here!

the only people I've seen do the laptop thing are idm people...the only dnb person who brought a laptop was UFO!...

as for CDs...us producers love 'em...saves money on plates...but I still cut plates of tunes that will never come out (can't afford to do it any other way)

Records aren't selling as well as they used to, bottom line.

but there are still people who love the black crack...so set the scale of your record business to the scale of the market...we don't have to move 20,000 units..

plus...MOST OF THE RECORDS SUCK!!!! over saturation of the market with shitty music.

back in the day you couldn't walk into a recordstore with a enough money to get all the things that you wanted to take home...now...you go to a record store and pick up maybe one or two things...

Equinox once said something that has always stuck with me, he simply said "Drum & Bass - means D R U M A N D B A S S", so why veer off the path? After all, we all are drum & bass artists working with drum & bass labels right? I personally think, that the balance will change given time, exposure and a helping hand along the way.
Peace to all the believers.

RIGHT FUCKIN' ON! bigs up to ASC and Equinox...some proper producers making proper drum and bass...stuff I'm happy to release...

as for genres...I'm a FIRM believer in Good Music being good music..I tend to like stuff with breakbeats..so I love my atmo dnb (when it's chopped all nice)...I also love breakcore (when it's chopped and dirty)..I love the jungle..I love the IDM..I even love good hiphop.

we aren't making music for people that like one style (if you do you are boring)...we are making music for people that like music...

we are embassaders...to a much bigger world...

j

0=0

some things you may want to check-

the emergence and re-emergence of hip hop & artists & crews when that music took a turn for the worse (-gangsterbling-jiggy etc etc)
--okayplayer.com (roots, common, d'angelo etc)
--public enemy/slamjamz/revolverlution (http://www.publicenemy.com) and chuck ds ideas on internet distribution, album sales etc

Mike Ladd (great interview here:
http://www.ukhh.com/features/interviews/...eladd.html



-

A book entitled 'As Serious As Your Life' by Valerie Wilmer, which looks into the rise af 'the new music' of ornette coleman, cecil taylor, coltrane ... et al, in the 60s & 70s

the book includes sections such as:
innovators and innovations
who are the new musicians
give the drummer some
the womans role
the conspiracy and some solutions

http://www.jazzscript.co.uk/books/freewilmer.htm

-

the current work of Marc Mac and Dego, http://nuwaveradio.co.uk, CO-OP and Goya distribution
http://www.goyamusic.com/



v

Pieter, get Damon on here! I'm sure this would be serious eye candy to the man.

As of this past weekend, Damon is a father, and is damn busy...and sounds like the happiest man alive (albeit a tired one).

I doubt he'll have time, but I'll let him know.

Did you ever get the disc by the way? You never told me.





{my god...a short post!}

the only people I've seen do the laptop thing are idm people...the only dnb person who brought a laptop was UFO!...

I've done whole "live" sets on a laptop several times as well, mostly not dnb, but, well, I've done it! Who else here? Raise your hand!

For the record, I'm not very keen on it...I'd rather watch a solid DJ, or, a real live performance, but that's just me.

we are embassaders...to a much bigger world...

Word.


{omigod...another one!}

A book entitled 'As Serious As Your Life' by Valerie Wilmer, which looks into the rise af 'the new music' of ornette coleman, cecil taylor, coltrane ... et al, in the 60s & 70s

the book includes sections such as:
innovators and innovations
who are the new musicians
give the drummer some
the womans role
the conspiracy and some solutions

http://www.jazzscript.co.uk/books/freewilmer.htm

Wow! What are the chances! I mention Sunny Murray and someone posts about this book! On the same day no less!

Excellent book. Essential reading IMO, if you're interested in the subject. She gives ample time to the lesser known artists as well as the giants.



{okay...this is getting disturbing. A hat trick.}

I've done whole "live" sets on a laptop several times as well, mostly not dnb, but, well, I've done it! Who else here? Raise your hand!

For the record, I'm not very keen on it...I'd rather watch a solid DJ, or, a real live performance, but that's just me.
!}

wait till you see Ultra-Violet then....



just needs to be done properley thats all......

The sum-up as I read it, from most of the label owners amongst us - the people who actually get the music out there....


Chris (Inperspective): stay within the dum n bass scene, keep plugging away and the scene will change - the 'good' drum n bass will come to the fore again

Blue (Streetbeats): keep plugging away with numerous diverse vibes but use any and all available angles/scenes to sell the records

Pieter (Metaformal): the 12" vinyl format is doomed, or doomed for those who want to do anything different anyway, so concentrate on CDs and target LP releases outside the d+b scene

Brett (Offshore): keep plugging away, stay fairly contendedly on the fringes of the scene, although the vinyl format is dying..?

Rohan (Bassbin): stay within the scene but differentiate this style / these styles for marketing purposes

EHL (Warm Communications): Strength in unity, things will change once enough people are releasing the 'good' stuff

ASC (Covert Operations): Stay within the d+b scene and keep plugging away - things will change

0=0: keep releases very small and adhere to a punk aesthetic in order to survive - obscurity can be good



So it looks lke the majority view here is that separating from the drum n bass scene would not be conducive to what we each want to do.

I have to say that I still wonder why no-one has really addressed the historical fact of the Happy Hardcore / Jungle split in 1994 as a precedent for another such split..... but perhaps I'm alone in seeing the parallels betwen the 2 forms of music, and the total absence of anything to link them bar their shared roots once-upon-a-time...

Furthermore, in the absence of any desire to be being seen to be creating an umbrella term under which our disparate strands of drum n bass-related music actually fall, then it also appears to me that all this talk of co-operative tours etc. will in reality, have to be much more selective and far less all-inclusive than the presence of so many different representative strands of the music on this particular thread would have appeared to suggest was a possibility to begin with.

i.e. it's considerably easier to see the links between Inperspective and Warm Communications, or between Streetbeats and Metaformal than between those 2 mini-camps. And bear in mind we're talking about trying to sell these links/ideas to your average d+b Dilly fan, who gets everything neatly bracketed into latin/liquid/techstep/clownstep bla bla bla...


So.... the chief difficulties facing this strategy:

The d+b infrastructure: in order to sell records in numbers greater than 1000 a pop globally, and in the abence of any significant radio presence (especially in the USA) you absolutely MUST capture the ears of the current drum n bass DJ fraternity - the established big names, as they have absolute control over where and when the music is heard, or indeed IF it is heard at all. With the exception of Bailey, who else from this league has shown any interest in championing anything beyond this week's fashions or a guaranteed anthem? Have I missed them?

Of course, there are some of you who feel that selling 1000 units at a time is perfectly satisfactory, so I guess if you can sustain that through sheer graft, then this question doesn't really apply to you.

Distribution: most of you probably have dist. deals with Vinyl, yes? Pressing up maybe one 12" every 6 months? Less than that? I am also wondering how much of a dent it is possible to make in what is viewed by the d+b industry as a supremely disposable market (i.e. a 12" released 2 months ago is "old" and therefore out-of-date) with such a limited output.

Therefore - perhaps you decide to start more labels - so, where do you secure distribution for them? With the SAME distributors - putting all your eggs in one basket, so to speak? Or do you instead commit to the occasional release strategy from your one label? If so, how do you maintain a profile amongst today's extremely fickle d+b audience?

These are, I feel, very pertinent questions that must be faced up to which no amount of sheer goodwill alone will answer...

naphta, i love you!!

naphta, i love you!!

Stop that, you!!!

naphta, i love you!!

Stop that, you!!!

btw, got the cds

really nice man.........