MIDI - Question 2 / Drum Chopping Methodology

Hey all,

*tips cap*


Okay,

I've just been using the Croms method for sharper drum chopping in Sound Forge / Recycle... like this :

Originally posted by Croms
For getting individual clinically razor sharp hits in Sound Forge and ReCycle plus a full 1 bar razor sharp to the sample MIDI file:

Manual devide drum hits in Sound Forge by using markers. After you've finished the lot, devide the drum hits per bar, "special > regions list > markers to regions...", then "tools > extract regions...", point towards a folder, select a file name prefix for your hits and put the "start file counter index" to 1. Voila, individual hits.

After you've done this don't close your bar yet, but go one step back "edit > undo markers to regions". Then blend in a high tone sine wave with the bar ("tools > synthesis > simple > frequency set to 2,000 Hz") by setting your cursor back to start and mixing in the sine wave ("edit > paste special > mix").

Now fade out each and every region, this enables you to have razor sharp hits which ReCycle won't have a problem with at all. Even if you put the slider in ReCycle to 1 you'll have the same result as 99.

Now save as a .wav, open in ReCycle, set the amount of bars to 1 and move the slider a bit to the right so you can see all of the slices. "File > Export > Standard Midi File". Voila, a 1 bar .midi file.

I've managed to follow that pretty much and now I'm in a situation where I've got individual wav hits of the original drum break as well as a MIDI file in Cubase.

What I need to know is, how do I get the individual wav hits to tie to my MIDI file ?

I know this is probably very obvious but it's late in the day and the last thing I need now is more reading up about how to do this and that, so if anyone can help twould be much appreciated!!!

Ta!


Also, maybe some of you can give your opinion on this 'Croms' method of drum slicing ? I pinched this info from the Grid on DOA, where there was a whole debate already... does anyone else here use this method ?

What is your preferred style ?

I'd imagine you map the individual slices across your keyboard using a sampler of some sort maybe?

never used recycle so I'm not much help there.

Personally I spend a massive amount of time selecting individual slices in cool edit and using the "save selection as..." function.

I number each slice and load them all into my sampler in order when I'm finished.
then I manually try recreate the original loop by looping the original break and syncing the individual slices to the whole audio loop in the piano roll / matrix editor.

the shareware cooledit and the mouse pointer and zoom function do the job!

I find that even handier than wavelab.

Ah yes....


of course!

This is where I should be using Kontact.


But now that I think of it... would a MIDI file be generated if I just loaded the wav hits into Kontact and then imported into Cubase?

Or am I mistaken?

as I said, not too sure how recycle works, but if it automatically assigns each slice to a specific key then all you need do is import the slices into kontact, then drop the midi file into cubase on the correct channel, loop it and press play.
even if you have to assign the slices to keys yourself, the same thing applies I'd imagine.

must get me head around kontact actually.
I have it there just never seem to have any time to sit and study it!

sorry Code, I'm probably not the best person to be advising you on this, I don't use kontact, recycle or cubase.

sorry Code, I'm probably not the best person to be advising you on this, I don't use kontact, recycle or cubase.

heheh... no worries - see, my problem is that I've exported the midi file from Recycle with a sine wave mixed in with each hit !

(See the Croms method of razor sharp drum chopping in my first post)

This is why there is some confusion for me...

anyhow, we'll wait for the Recycle/Kontact/Cubase cavalry to ride in tomorrow!

:P

Yo Code Bwoy.

The point you want to get to is where you can arrange the individual hits of the midi File to make your own origional loops?
This is what I do.
Instead of worring about expoting midi files and stuff just get a folder together containing all your individual hits eg: Kick Snare, Hat ect...

Open up Cubase and Create a midi Channel and connect Kontakt to said Channel.
Now load all your hits into Kontakt and assign them to keys on the keyboard.
When you have that done set you left and right locaters in Cubase over the area you want to start writing your break, double click inbetween them (this should create a blank midi file).
If you now double click on the midi file to open it you should be able to playback your sampled hits by pressing the keys on the you have assigned them to.

Hope that helps, give me a ring if your stuck.

forget about recycle.
it sucks balls, just cut your breaks in sound forge

But now that I think of it... would a MIDI file be generated if I just loaded the wav hits into Kontact and then imported into Cubase?

Or am I mistaken?

No.

Recycle generates a midi file which is extremely useful as it preserves the groove of the break which you can then work from. But its not essential.

Once you have mapped the wavs into kontakt you then have to draw the midi in the sequencer, to make them play in the tune this is what allows you to program your own drum patterns. Even if you import a midi file from recycle you will spend a lot of time making your own patterns most probably.

Okay, thanks all for the reponses.

I suppose what I'm really asking here, is - what's the advantage of chopping as Croms describes as opposed to just cutting solely in Soundforge and then using Kontact and Cubase ?

[subvert]

okay, thanks all for the reponses.

i suppose what i'm really asking here, is - what's the advantage of chopping as croms describes as opposed to just cutting solely in soundforge and then using kontact and cubase ?

as replied by logos above:

recycle generates a midi file which is extremely useful as it preserves the groove of the break which you can then work from. but its not essential.

wav files = the drum hits
midi files = the timing of when those drum hits are played

[Macc]

forget about recycle.
it sucks balls, just cut your breaks in sound forge

i'd agree but for the release envelope.

used extremely minimally (never ever more than 30%) it sounds completely natural, saves you loads of work, and is immensely useful.

also the midi file generation, as mentioned.

it just handles like a slab of turd

[Macc]

Okay, thanks all for the reponses.

I suppose what I'm really asking here, is - what's the advantage of chopping as Croms describes as opposed to just cutting solely in Soundforge and then using Kontact and Cubase ?

Do bear in mind that when it comes to chopping, Croms is the most anal picky ant-fucker in the entire universe. You think people like me are bad, he's an animal. He is a realism freakto the core, quantising is essentially not allowed in Cromsland.

His methods - and don't take this the wrong way - are somewhat above your 'level' at the moment. You don't really need razor sharp to the sample bar long midi files, close enough will do you, as you'll probably end up quantising it all anyway.

Okay!

thanks everyone!


- no offense taken Macc - I know f**k all !


I'll see if I can manage to import my Soundforge chopped break into Recycle tonight and get a midi file into Cubase from that.

Interesting thread.

Being a production novice, I've so far done all my drum edits in Pro Tools... with the mouse. Takes forever but I get the patterns that I'm after, and I enjoy doing it. Plus I like to use lots of different hits from a break, because they all sound different and keep it interesting (Can you tell I'm a drummer yet?)

Once when I had a deadline to remix a band's tune, I turned the 'dog gone' break into a .rex and sequenced my beats in Reason (with the mouse, once again). Main thing I didn't like about that method was that I couldn't play around with the start and end points of clips.

Dont' know why I shy away from triggering with my midi keyboard... just a control freak, I guess.


EDIT: and i just noticed my signature. maybe i should learn from my namesake.

Recycle generates a midi file which is extremely useful as it preserves the groove of the break which you can then work from. But its not essential.


thumb up

Exactly... Keep the orignal groove as much as possible, open the REX in Reason or any other ap you use for REX files, export the re-tempod loop again to the tempo your using and chop that tempod loop up in Sound Forge by dropping markers onto all the key phrases, keep ghost notes together, keep any really interesting phrases that stutter really well together and cut out all the kicks, Snares and hats seperately. Also copy and paste some new phrases together out of a few different ones and save anywhere from 10-30 different little phrases and hits and buiild a kit in Kontakt or whatever you use from that. You have all the ghost notes with as much of the original shuffle preserved and can trigger as much or as little of each phrase you want with midi, this way you can use short notes to trigger just the first sound of each phrase for precision or longer notes to trigger loose and lazy ghosted phrases or even layer ghosted phrases together. Also you can get away with basic 16th note sequences with no swing or shuffle because the ghosted phrases contain the shuffle. You can still slide midi notes left or right with quantization off if you want to get loose, and you can make a few kick snare hat phrases from the original loop into single samples to keep some of the lazy feel on the 8th notes if you want too. Not only a bit of a time saver but you'll come up with drums sequences you might not have originally come up with before because phrases are stuck together in a way you might not have thought of in that exact order before.

when it comes to chopping, Croms is the most anal picky ant-fucker in the entire universe. You think people like me are bad, he's an animal. He is a realism freakto the core, quantising is essentially not allowed in Cromsland.

i wouldnt say he's an animal though, teddybear more likely.

The other thing is that when working with midi notes, all these red blocks in a grid get a little confusing (man, i must sound like a noob. i'm not blonde. really).

At least when you're looking at a waveform, what you see is what you get, more or less.

[Macc]

^ which is exactly why it depends on the music i'm doing as to which method i use.

Wavelab is more friendly for this than soundforge i think....you can set the regions list to match the number of ticks in Logic (or whatever sequencer u use) so recreating the pattern without a generated midi file (ala recycle) is easy.

*don't think s,forge gives a dteailed enough timing resolution per beats/bars etc.


Check my comment on Macc's 'let off steam at recycle post' for 'basic' info on how this is done.

Xaf